Rational Evil

If you love it when I admit I was wrong, you’ll enjoy this post.

I used to think America needed to change its foreign policy if it had any hope of ending terrorism. That sort of opinion is never better than a reasonable guess about what is most likely. But it seemed to me that even terrorists have specific objectives, and if they achieve those objectives, they stop terrorizing.

My thinking was that the terrorists were asking for things we’d be better off giving them anyway, for our own selfish reasons. For example, Israel is strong enough and wealthy enough to no longer need our support. And it’s unclear that our heavy footprint in the Middle East is guaranteeing us more oil and less terrorism. It seemed like a win-win scenario to give the terrorists what they were asking for, since the only impact on us is saving some money. Or at least it would save me from transferring my wealth to the pockets of U.S. military industries.

Recently I changed my opinion. While I think there was a period in the past when a different foreign policy would have brought us to a different point, we don’t have a time machine. We are where we are. And where we are is totally fucked.

The problem is with the loose cell structure of Al-Qaeda, and the fact it has become a lifestyle for its members. If we remove all the original reasons for Al-Qaeda’s existence, I believe they would find new ones. It is unlikely the members of terror cells would decide to quit and become insurance salesmen.

While the cell structure of Al-Qaeda is an excellent way to wage war, it’s a bad way to stop a war. If all the existing cells around the world made lists of their reasons for being terrorists, and compared those lists, I think they’d look very different except for the parts about hating Israel and the United States. If the leadership of Al-Qaeda told its cells to disarm, half of the cells would just splinter off and keep on terrorizing. It’s permawar.

One of the problems is that there is a complete disconnect between reality and what terrorists believe. They think God gave them specific real estate, that a horse can fly, there are virgins waiting for them in heaven, and Jews orchestrated the 9-11 attacks. There’s no reason to believe that reality intrudes on their decisions. Tweaking reality would be a waste of time.

(To be fair, the same can be said of America’s government. Just replace “flying horse” with “a guy who walks on water,” and “virgins in heaven” with “the rapture.”)

This leads me to Israel. I used to think Israel was making a mistake to occupy disputed land and give their enemies more reasons to attack and fewer reasons to make peace. Again, perhaps if we had a time machine there was a period in history where that was true. But we’re long past that. Now I believe there is sufficient perpetual hatred against Israel that it would be irrational for them to offer any concessions. It makes more sense to grab as much land and water as they can get their hands on. And it makes sense to keep the Palestinians in a permanent state of wretchedness and powerlessness as Israel consolidates its hold on those resources. In five hundred years, they’ll be glad they have more land and water.

I don’t think there’s much chance of Israel getting nuked. Even the craziest Muslims wouldn’t irradiate their own holy lands while standing downwind and hoping for the best.

While I think Israel’s policies are a dark grey form of evil, I support them because at this point they are being entirely rational. It would be hypocritical to deny any other nation the right to pursue their self-interest.

If the Palestinians ever display an ability to offer a credible peace, I’m willing to revise my opinion. If not, the best advice I can give them is to say goodbye to their shit.

Meanwhile I’m going to invest in Halliburton and see if I can get back some of my money.

Comments

[Scott]

Your advocation of Israel rationally pursuing its own self-interest by repressing the Palestinians is disconcerting because you've removed morality from the equation. It sounds like you would encourage a teenager to bully a young child for his lunch money.

I realize that replying to this post months late probably precludes anyone reading my response. But when I read this post I felt a little dark spot appear on my soul, and responding is my way of trying to scrub it clean.

[Gerrit]

Once the French left Algeria, the Algerians stopped terrorizing them. Case in point.

[Arifi Waked]

Wow. I think I actually hate you. Congratulations, you're the first person I've ever actively hated who wasn't a politician. You and your inhumane attitude is why everyone in the rest of the world hates the United States. You sit at your desk in your comfortable little suburb with no idea of what life is like for the rest of us. You have no idea what it's like to go to Palestine and see bullet holes in your grandmother's kitchen window and learn that 5 cousins they didn't tell you about were also killed in random Israeli check points. How dare you pass judgment on those of us with actual problems and how dare you spread your hate and evil to all the idiots who read your blog and think you know what you're talking about? You have no idea whatsoever of the responsibility your minor celebritydom affords you. Scott Adams, you truly disgust me.

...Although, I do really think it's cute the way you think Al-Qaida is related to Palestine. It's run by Saudis, not Palestinians. There are plenty of groups in Palestine who do hate America, your idiotic foreign policies have taken care of that, but Al-Qaida isn't one of them.

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[sinan]

This is a different approach and I understand that it seems reasonable when you're on the other side of the world safely away from here, war-torn middle east. You would be suprised how funny your comments seem to those of us who are living in middle east. But after all, it is life and things are not likely to change.

[Turil]

Reality is that irrationality and evil rear their ugly heads when people are afraid. It doesn't matter how moral or good or well-intentioned you generally are, if you become afraid, your higher functions of your brain shut down and the fight-or-flight functions take over and give you the balls to do whatever you have to do to get rid of the things that seem to be threatening you.

If you want to cure irrationality and evil, you have to help people feel safe, and stop threatening them, for heaven's sake.

Of course, we're not terribly good at that, because we are just as irrational as everyone else.

But we have our moments of cognitive clarity, and it would be just spiffy if we used those moments to come up with a plan to find better ways to deal with our problems than being evil.

[Penny]

Ahmadinejad belongs to a cult that thinks they have to destroy Israel and start a armegeddon type war to make the 12 Imam come out of hiding. Seriously. They think he is hiding in a well.

Ahmadinejad has said plenty of times on the record that they plan to get nukes and use them against Israel and that if 100 millian Muslims have to die as collateral damage that is okay.

If you want to know what is really going on in the ME, you have to read their newspapers. And MEMRI translates their newcasts. The European and US media seem intent on ignoring the Mahdi cult for some reason.

[Gaurav]

Q: How many terrorist bombings have there been in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, Japan, China, India, Hungary, etc, etc, etc?

A: Zero

my dear Greg... first get your facts right ...
india possibly has been the worst affected country by terrorism... from long before you guys knew india existed...

suddenly on 9/11 you wake up to the existance of something called terrorism... and yeah like everything american you become a "world" authority on it...

[Chris Hulley]

"I don’t think there’s much chance of Israel getting nuked. Even the craziest Muslims wouldn’t irradiate their own holy lands while standing downwind and hoping for the best."

As the famous story about the scorpion and the frog crossing the river ends, "you forget, my friend - this is the middle east".

[Lawless One]

You have an interesting thesis, but I am having a hard time finding examples from history to support it. Look at Vietnam which is now considered a bosom buddy and favored trade partner. That nation had a lot of intractable people, many downright crazy suicidal ones, who used terrorism as a very successful tactic and did so uninterrupted for many decades through at least several sets of external enemies back even before the French and Japanese. We got kicked out and they had pretty good cause to want revenge. Yet, I know of no incident of them following us home to continue “picking at the scab.” Same for Somalia and Lebanon where we exited with tails between our legs.

Or, look at Korea. Call that one a draw instead of an eviction. Technically, we are still at war with them. It is merely in ceasefire. Although they seem to have the ability to pierce that far heavier guarded border than our own with frequency, I don’t recall them coming over here for any incidents.

Would it make a difference where the terrorists essentially lost such a Malaysia or Northern Ireland instead of won or tied? Events would suggest no. Why then, other than guilt or fear, is there the automatic assumption that a withdrawal from Iraq would lead to Al Queda or others continuing to pursue a war in the States?

Granted, it seems intuitive, but where is the preponderance of the evidence showing it happened in similar situations in the past?

[more irreverence at resistence-is-possible.blogspot.com]

[Lawless One]

You have an interesting thesis, but I am having a hard time finding examples from history to support it. Look at Vietnam which is now considered a bosom buddy and favored trade partner. That nation had a lot of intractable people, many downright crazy suicidal ones, who used terrorism as a very successful tactic and did so uninterrupted for many decades through at least several sets of external enemies back even before the French and Japanese. We got kicked out and they had pretty good cause to want revenge. Yet, I know of no incident of them following us home to continue “picking at the scab.” Same for Somalia and Lebanon where we exited with tails between our legs.

Or, look at Korea. Call that one a draw instead of an eviction. Technically, we are still at war with them. It is merely in ceasefire. Although they seem to have the ability to pierce that far heavier guarded border than our own with frequency, I don’t recall them coming over here for any incidents.

Would it make a difference where the terrorists essentially lost such a Malaysia or Northern Ireland instead of won or tied? Events would suggest no. Why then, other than guilt or fear, is there the automatic assumption that a withdrawal from Iraq would lead to Al Queda or others continuing to pursue a war in the States?

Granted, it seems intuitive, but where is the preponderance of the evidence showing it happened in similar situations in the past?

[more irreverence at resistence-is-possible.blogspot.com]

[Bruce Harrison]

Oh, yes, Scott, one more thing: you don't have to get every al Qaeda cell. You just need to cut off their money and state-sponsored support. The ones you have to convince are the states that support terrorists. Do that, and the terrorist cells will dry up. So, if we convince the big sponsors (read, "Iran") to stop, we're 90% of the way there.

[Bruce Harrison]

It makes no difference why they believe what they believe. The real reason you aren't going to get them to stop (the Muslim fanatics, Arab and Persian) until it becomes too painful for them to continue is that their goal is to convert the entire world into a Muslim theocracy. At least, that's the stated goal, and the minions believe it. The leaders just want the power to rule the world.

Hard to find many intermediate goals that might make them stop, with the exception of destroying Israel, which to such crazed lunatics like Ahmadinejad seems like a pretty good first step. However, if you read the texts they're using to teach their schoolkids in Iran, they're really preparing for a war with the US.

As far as Israel getting nuked, Iran probably won't nuke Jerusalem for just the reason you state (blow up their holy land), but they will nuke Tel Aviv and the other major cities, particularly the port city of Haifa. That's one of Hezbollah's big targets, at which they're still firing missiles as we speak. If they destroy the major business, industrial and port bases, they will effectively destroy the country.

I would be interested in knowing why you think Israel's "policies are a dark grey form of evil." They occupy lands not because they just up and said one day, "Hey, Moishe, you doing anything today? No? Well then, why don't we take over the Golan Heights and the West Bank!" You may have forgotten, but Israel has been attacked numerous times by Arab armies, most notably in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982. The Arabs had a simple goal: kill every Jew in Israel.

Israel occupied the lands they did to provide a buffer between them and all the people who would like to kill them. Over time, they have given much of those lands back, and their reward for so doing has been more dead Israelis. So I'm confused as to why you think Israel is evil, while the Arab Muslims who are trying to kill them seem to be, to you, just being themselves. Or am I misunderstanding you?

What we should have done three years ago is bombed the crap out of Iran's nuclear facilities and showed them that they couldn't do what they're doing with impunity. Think how different the world would be today: there would be no Hezbollah in Syria; Lebanon would have returned to the enlightened democracy it was before the Muslims invaded; we wouldn't have the intense pressure from Hezbollah in Syria lobbing bombs into Israel; Iraq would be pacified, since there would be no support from Iran, no IEDs being shipped to Iraq to kill our soldiers, no support of Syria by Iran. . . the list goes on.

Which is what our left-leaning citizens never understand. Their pacifist ideology, that says we can't stop a problem when it's small, always leads to either having to stop it when it's big, or letting it grow even bigger until it's impossible not to confront -- and then, millions of human beings have to die in the process.

As George Washington said, all nations operate in their self interest, and to expect them to do otherwise is foolish. Yet many on the left seem to want the US to do exactly that: ask the rest of the world what is in THEIR best interest for us to do, and then do it, regardless of the cost to us.

That may be fine with you, Scott, but it's not with me. And hopefully not with the majority of Americans, because if it is, then we're half way down the road to Armageddon, and when we get there, the living truly will envy the dead.

[aurorabeacon]

Yeah, Scott, your first mistake before was in assuming that everyone was smart enough to know when to take the money and run. Numerous compromises between Palestine and Israel have been thwarted because each side felt they were owed and could hold out for something better. Thus, no compromise.

I'm going to have to agree with the vast majority of the other commentors - that in general people don't think through the consequences of their actions (at least in the way you think they will). If bombs in the holy land are a good thing, as long as they get rid of some of the "evil" people there, then wouldn't an even bigger bomb, or a nuclear weapon, potentially be even better? If not to all the would-be terrorists, then at least to a dangerous handful. Just like how there's always going to be a few would-be terrorists in any given people, there should also be a few lunatic terrorists out of that smaller number of people. And perhaps one 'lucky' enough to lay his hands on something with that much power to destroy.

[Neal Miskin]

You'll probably want to sell that Halliburton stock very soon after the 2008 presidential election. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the next government starts up some serious fraud investigation into Halliburton.

[Arnold Harris]

A lot of people are coming to the same conclusion as Scott Adams has in regard to the Israeli-Hamastinian conflict and Israel's never more than uneasy relations with the rest of the Arabs in particular and with other Moslems in general.

There never will be any peace between Israel and the Hamastinians. Because they both covet the same piece of land, and both their cultures have built-in constraints against any fundamental compromise.

And I am super pleased by that. Because I see this as as a force that one day will compel the Jews to expel the Hamastinians to distances farther away from their heartland.

Actually, "some day" is right now. Because good old american-style urbanization and outright suburban and exurban sprawl, combined with some of the most intense fundamentalist Zionism on the face of this planet, and backed by solid support from the western bible Christians (although with almost no support from leftist or liberal Jews of the West), Israel's population continues to expand in almost every nook and cranny of Judea and Samaria that has no Arabs parked on it. And more of those fine concrete walls go up all the time to make sure the Hamastinians remain bottled up.

The fact is, there is no arab future in any part of Hamastine, and there never will be. The jobs in Israel that they used to commute to every day have now been taken over by gastarbeiten from China, the Phillipines, Romania, and any other anybody-but-Moslems sort of country where where the folks are raised to work hard for cheap money, keep their mouths shut while on the job, don't get involved in local politics, and expect no right to remain in Israel after their jobs run dry.

And who exploits these folks working in Israel? Some of the toughest, most cunning and ruthless Russians who were smart enough to marry jewish wives and make their way from Mother Russia to Israel with them. In the post-communist era, these guys always land on their feet, and they are winners wherever they land.

(These Russians -- Jewish and maybe quite a few who really aren't -- will be the bosses of all Israel one day. And I think that will be good. Because if I respect anything at all in this world, it is the toughness of Russians, regardless of whatever religion or dogma they babble. There's something about them that reminds of the hard streets of Chicago when I was a kid there.)

So there's no ecomomy whatsoever for the Hamastinians, and there never will be. Who on the outside would be stupid enough to invest in a factory, that regardless of what they think is being produced there, will be turning out junky but dangerous Qassem rockets that are fired off as soon as they are produced?

And what happens to that factory, so carefully built with funds from some stupid benefactor? The Israelis blow the bejesus out of it, and leave a pile of smoking rubble along with some burned and mangled hamastinian corpses.

Before this is all played out, they will have no water either to drink, bath in, or raise some measly crops. And their sewage will flow down their streets in open channels.

(Weaping Willies from the western world will travel there for purposes of wringing their hands over all this, and the Hamastinians, true to form, will take them hostage, as they do frequently in Gaza. Which serves them right for trying to help such people.)

The smart and younger ones among them even now do anything possible to get to hell out of there. Which is the only thing that makes any sense for them. Why stay in Hamastine as part of a large family trying to live on $100 per month, when you can get jobs around Dearborn, Michigan and Detroit where you can make $500-$1000 per week, where there are no concrete walls, and instead of a miserable donkey, a man can buy a Ford or Chevy on easy payments?

Hey, all you poor sensitive souls out there. I know it pains you to read all this. Because it surely flies in the face of all the peace on earth/good will to men stuff that you ingested with your momma's milk. But that's the way the world really works, in all its not-infrequent ugliness.

The truth is, thorough ethnic cleansing is the one kind of peace that that has worked throughout world history. Go ask the Poles, Czechs, Balts, Russian, Slovaks, Hungarians, Romanians, Serbs, Croats and Slovenes who expelled 16 million ethnic Germans from their lands following World War II.

And besides. Who questions any of this after all the conflicted people get settled somewhere? Two days after its off CNN, not only does it no longer exist, but nobody even remembers that it ever did exist.

So i drink a toast to what I think will be the final solution of the Hamastinian problem.

And don't any of you ever forget, even for a minute, that the Israelis are the ones with the 175-250 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons, plus the means to deliver them onto not just the holiest of holies of all their enemies, but also what remains of the biggest share of the world's oil supply, if push comes to the wrong kind of shove.

Otherwise, for what other reason could any of you imagine these brightest people in the world not only dreamed out and thought out the theories of nuclear fission and fusion 60-70 years ago, but also built -- and are still building -- that Israeli nuclear and thermonuclear stockpile?

It used to be easy to shove them around. But when they say "never again", I think that's exactly what they are warning the world about. Because that's the way I would handle it, if I were responsible for the destiny of the Jewish state and nation.

Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI

[Noah Vaile]

Israel was founded in by expatriate Jews who drove first the British out of the land, then fought the united might of the muslim/arab world with very little (if any) support from Western nations, and won. They invited the arab peoples living on the land to stay and be part of the country- not to renounce the pitiful thing they had as a religion- but to be citizens of the state of Israel.
Unfortunately the arab governments all urged the "palestinians" to flee, but would not accept them as emigres into their own countries. Instead they foisted them onto the UN in refugee camps. They constantly bombarded them with propaganda and presented their plite as being the direct result of the existence of the "Jewish state" and not their own policies. They made sure they were kept impoverished and uneducated despite the oil wealth these nations had and kept for themselves. It is the "palestinians" and their arab brethern who have been responsible for the statelessness of these refugees. Refugees now for nearly sixty years. That is insane. and The result is insanity.
Sadly too many people have been deluded by the misery to see the reality here. The arab nations continue to refuse substantial aid and deny the 'refugees' entry into their own (failing) nations.
islam is a false religion based on submission. Its tenets are espoused by infallible imams whose word is law and cannot be questioned. Their holy book is wholly trash talking about everyone who is not part of their crazy murder cult. You cannot build a vibrant society on this basis. So they have a history and a present of not doing so.
Israel is like a garden of technology and agriculture in the arab desert world. The existence of Israel shows what can be done through hard work and application of it to positive ends. The islamic creed however pretty much stops with the espousal of islam and does not reward enterprise and creativity as it insists on submission to its imams.
islam is a "religion" of death and destruction and cannot abide Israel because Israel has brought life to the desert where islam wishes to bring only death.
America may have a shoddy image in some people's eyes but it has become the greatest nation in the world as the result of individual enterprise and not through submission to madmen. We are looked upon as the beacon of freedom in the world and the land of plenty for good reason. I am sick and tired of people who decry the United States while they give our enemies who are literally violent and evil in their actions a total pass.
Just check out France. They recently elected a president who actually likes and supports America. Can 50 million Frenchman be wrong? Not by the light of ten thousand burning cars.

[Ajay Pal Singh Atwal]

May Phill the prince of Insufficient light get you. But if you keep going this way, next time it would be Satan, the Prince of Darkness, oops sorry you already have Pissident Bush, the Prince of US. My best wishes.

[Gekkobear]

"I have heard it from many people, it doesn't work or I sound unrealistic, well that's what they said about Gandhi too and scoffed at what he proposed. It worked then and It's got to work now."

Brilliant, ny. Ghandi, who suggested that the Jews in WW2 should have avoided any disagreemernt and willingly beel slaughtered by the Nazis because then they'd have seen the error of their ways.

Ghandi's plan works perfectly if your enemy knows he/she should (and will) feel guilty for killing you. If your enemy has actually convinced himself that killing you is better for society, religion, or whatever other reason then all you've done is make the goal of killing you very easy.

Now, the question is; do the people cutting off the heads of anyone they think is "against their religion" while pushing girls without proper covering back into burning buildings feel guilt for mass slaughter of peopel they consider their enemies?

Well, I saw the gatherings when these societies in the Middle East saw the video of 9/11... I don't think that was guilt.

So, your goal is to surrender and die peacefully; while encouraging everyone else to do the same; because you've misunderstood why Ghandi's plan worked against the British and why it won't work here.

Best of luck with that, but don't expect a lot of support from people who aren't convinced that al-Queda has the same level of moral guilt for killing as the British military during the colonization period of India...

[Cloud]

It's permawar with the terrorists that exist now, but there's no reason to continue acting in a way that keeps producing more.

[Bill]

The question is: how can we stop the US government from creating ever more terrorist groups and dictators through foreign aid? Of course we would still have some problems if we didn't create our own enemies... we'd have about the level of trouble that Switzerland suffers.

[Toby]

You are all nuts. There is no war on Terror and nobody cares about Israel or Palestine. "War On Terror" is propaganda. Period. Israel is the U.S. foothold in the region in the Middle East – it is a strategic partner.

2,973 people died on Sept 11. ...and the U.S. has spent about $500 Billion in the war on terror. That is about $200 Million for every person who died. Do you feel any safer?

500 Billion is about $2000 for every American – a nice tax rebate. It is also enough money to build about 500 world trade centers. I don’t want to speculate what 500 Billion would do for schools or hospitals. No doubt the states will spend a whole lot more before the "war" is over. To suggest that the U.S. made a 500+ billion investment to end terrorism is nuts. If the U.S. was trying to save American lives, it would have spent the money are lowering saturated fats in foods and decreasing drunk driving.

There are decreasing resources in the world and the U.S. is fighting for the lion’s share of those resources. It is rationally moving to continue its existence as THE superpower by controlling the asset that is most important to nation building.

Terror and Religion is what fuels the war - not what causes it. Bush, like all world leaders, will not personally fight because he has wealth and an education. So he needs someone to do it for him - and guess what? Religion / freedom / terror are the perfect tools to make this happen. The U.S. government needs to work with ideologies you are willing to die for. Soldiers are not fighting because they are paid $200 per week. They are fighting for freedom! (Who's I don't know, but FREEDOM by god!) Israel? Sure, if you are willing to fight for it, we can throw that is as well!

Let's stay focused people! If you want to stop the war, lower the demand for scarce resources - oil. Simple. Whenever a resource is scarce, has high demand, and lacks reasonable substitutes - people will fight. If you suggest anything else you are ignorant or delusional.

If the demand for oil cannot be decreased then maybe we should accept that a war for oil is actually a good thing. In which case we should also accept that to some degree terrorism will be a by-product of such a war. The have-nots generally dislike the haves.

Want to end terrorism? This will never happen – stop dreaming. Terrorism is the only means for a severe underdog to fight back. The more uneven the match-up, the more likely the underdog is to resort to terrorism. It is like when the bully picks on the small kid at school. Eventually the small kid kicks him in the nuts and the bully cries foul.

Want to decrease terrorism? I think a good starting place is if the States stops attacking countries on false pretences and stealing their resources. In short – stop picking on the little guy. Understand that this may mean you need to catch a bus a few times a week. A bit of terrorism is the market price for oil.

[Toby]

You are all nuts. There is no war on Terror and nobody cares about Israel or Palestine. "War On Terror" is propaganda. Period. Israel is the U.S. foothold in the region in the Middle East – it is a strategic partner.

2,973 people died on Sept 11. ...and the U.S. has spent about $500 Billion in the war on terror. That is about $200 Million for every person who died. Do you feel any safer?

500 Billion is about $2000 for every American – a nice tax rebate. It is also enough money to build about 500 world trade centers. I don’t want to speculate what 500 Billion would do for schools or hospitals. No doubt the states will spend a whole lot more before the "war" is over. To suggest that the U.S. made a 500+ billion investment to end terrorism is nuts. If the U.S. was trying to save American lives, it would have spent the money are lowering saturated fats in foods and decreasing drunk driving.

There are decreasing resources in the world and the U.S. is fighting for the lion’s share of those resources. It is rationally moving to continue its existence as THE superpower by controlling the asset that is most important to nation building.

Terror and Religion is what fuels the war - not what causes it. Bush, like all world leaders, will not personally fight because he has wealth and an education. So he needs someone to do it for him - and guess what? Religion / freedom / terror are the perfect tools to make this happen. The U.S. government needs to work with ideologies you are willing to die for. Soldiers are not fighting because they are paid $200 per week. They are fighting for freedom! (Who's I don't know, but FREEDOM by god!) Israel? Sure, if you are willing to fight for it, we can throw that is as well!

Let's stay focused people! If you want to stop the war, lower the demand for scarce resources - oil. Simple. Whenever a resource is scarce, has high demand, and lacks reasonable substitutes - people will fight. If you suggest anything else you are ignorant or delusional.

If the demand for oil cannot be decreased then maybe we should accept that a war for oil is actually a good thing. In which case we should also accept that to some degree terrorism will be a by-product of such a war. The have-nots generally dislike the haves.

Want to end terrorism? This will never happen – stop dreaming. Terrorism is the only means for a severe underdog to fight back. The more uneven the match-up, the more likely the underdog is to resort to terrorism. It is like when the bully picks on the small kid at school. Eventually the small kid kicks him in the nuts and the bully cries foul.

Want to decrease terrorism? I think a good starting place is if the States stops attacking countries on false pretences and stealing their resources. In short – stop picking on the little guy. Understand that this may mean you need to catch a bus a few times a week. A bit of terrorism is the market price for oil.

[ny]

I believe -
A policy of hatred begets more hatred.
A policy of murder begets more murder.

Just saying that killing more people in the process of acquiring more land and water should continue appears to be an "I give up" & "I have no hope" attitude. First thing is to stop all blood shed whether an opponent agrees or disagrees or is hell bent on wiping you off.

I have heard it from many people, it doesn't work or I sound unrealistic, well that's what they said about Gandhi too and scoffed at what he proposed. It worked then and It's got to work now.

[ny]

I believe -
A policy of hatred begets more hatred.
A policy of murder begets more murder.

Just saying that killing more people in the process of acquiring more land and water should continue appears to be an "I give up" & "I have no hope" attitude. First thing is to stop all blood shed whether an opponent agrees or disagrees or is hell bent on wiping you off.

I have heard it from many people, it doesn't work or I sound unrealistic, well that's what they said about Gandhi too and scoffed at what he proposed. It worked then and It's got to work now.

[Jeff]

Hammertyme,

You miss the point. If truth is "unavailable" by definition, than it is impossible to declare something either true or untrue. In his post, Scott implied that various religious beliefs were untrue. That is inconsistent with his previous position on the nature of truth.

[steve]

The first and most important thing that this nation must do and it must be asap, secure our borders, we can not go on with turnstiles in place of controls and granting amnesty when it gets out of control to those who beat the system.
Then we need to become totally self supported, we must give up our dependence on oil from overseas, stop outsourcing all of our work and research.
To accom[plish this we need to overhaul the educational system and stop pretending to have no child left behind.
If we do not step up and repair the damages done in the last decade we will soon be one of the larger third world nations.

[Dramenbnejs]

When you build on false ideas, than you can proof any lie.

This post is here to remind you that more than 420 Palestinian villages full of people have a reason for terrorising Israel on the sole basis of blood revenge -- so much villages Israel destroyed in Palestina in the last 40 years.

[spike17]

You said:

To be fair, the same can be said of America’s government. Just replace “flying horse” with “a guy who walks on water,” and “virgins in heaven” with “the rapture."

What does fair have to do with it? Didn't you discuss that fallacy in logic weeks ago?

OK, to be obnoxious, if not fair, the same can be said of America's government from 1992-2000. Just replace "a guy who walks on water" and "virgins in heaven" with "a fat intern" and "women with a pulse."

[jamie, derby]

Remember that UK and Ireland are both Christian and this didn't prevented them to wage war against each other with the pretense that one was Catholic and the other Anglican...
Francesco Orsenigo

Prod not anglican

[Dick]

Remove all non-Muslems from the world and they would focus their hate and suicide bombings on members of a different Muslem sect or splinter group. You can not deal rationally with people whose objective is genocide of everyone that does not follow their Imam.

[Richard Gosling]

"But it seemed to me that even terrorists have specific objectives, and if they achieve those objectives, they stop terrorizing."

Well, you were right in some cases. Britain gave the Irish Republicans something that was nothing like what they wanted, but was a bit closer to what they wanted than they had before, and the IRA stopped terrorising.

But I agree, this sort of approach will achieve nothing with the Islamic Extremists. Welcome to the ranks of those who have realised that nothing we do now will fix this problem and make the terrorists go away. Despair and/or turning the TV off and pretending the problem doesn't exist are now your only realistic options.

[Brijesh]

Maybe it has been mentioned in the bazillion comments to your article above but regarding your comment about terrorists not turning insurance salesmen, I just had to say this: Changing policies may not change the present terrorists but it will not give them propaganda material to recruit more. In a few years the existing terrorists will grow old or die or blow themselves up and we would rid the world of terrorism (10 years?)

[ML/NJ]

Dark grey form of evil?

You need to watch Brigitte Gabriel (e.g. http://67.59.155.142/media/Duke_Brigitte_interview.wmv) or read her book (Why They Hate) and learn about the first time she crossed into Israel from her native Lebanon.

[Cyrus]

Ouch..Goodbye roadmap...hello "you're fucked".

Cyrus
http://blog.uible.com

[Bonocogito]

Scott says: [Is Al-Qaeda in Iraq killing Iraqis because of their foreign policy toward Israel?]

I have heard (on TV) terrorists claiming that they atack the ones that have power. In democracies, the power is in the hands of the people - the people decide, thus the people are ultimatively responsible. This is their rationalisation of the 9/11 attacks, as well as other simmilar attacks. It could be extended to most of the civilian casualties if one accounts the non-voters (like children) as colateral damage; note that at least one US presidential candidates (Clinton) has recently indicated that innocent casualties can be acceptable.

[lucy]

It probably does not involve wiping out entire cultures just to find the 100 terrorists. Where is the dam carrot in all this? How can we change their motivation? It seems that these beliefs are focused around certain key individuals. What happens if one takes those individuals out of the picture. Not as martrys, but what if we reduce them to just ordinary people. Show them taking a crap in the woods just like all the other bears. Something!http://www.bawwgt.com.Although, what if we COMPLETELY pull out of the Middle East and tell Israel that they are ON THEIR OWN, and STOP telling Israel what it can and can't do...maybe the problems will "take care of themselves". At least as far as
*America* is concerned. It seems to me we (Democrats, Republicans, undecideds) don't TRULY mind them killing each other, just as long as we're not letting our boys and girls and dollars get expended in the process, and we still get oil.

[Lama N.]

my palistinian friends once invited me for a peaceful protest at a Canadian University against former Prime Minsiter of Isreal, who is considered by many a war criminal. I declined for personal beliefs, and the protest ended with teargas, breaking of windows and deportation of many colleagues. Reason: one miscommunicated sentence with the security guard.
A few months later, one of my colleagues was placed under arrest for stating during a political oriented dispute with an isreali in the main grounds of the same university, that he "the pali" will one day be famous, while the other "the isreali" will be selling potatoes on the street corner. Reason for arrest: Palistinian people are only believed they can become famous by becoming suicide bombers. He was in for 3 months.
I have viewed the media and the media is soo skewed i stopped caring. Go to arab channels, palistinian kids are dying and isrealis are horrible animals. Go to american oriented media (including canada and britain) and isrealis are trying to live among palistinians with fear that the next time they get onto the bus there will be a nutcase with strapped on bombs.
Breathing in, before we talk politics, both sides are hurting, and both sides are willing to live in peace (alot already do) but for those fews who feel vengence. isealis victimize palistinian children, and palistinian target commercial districts. Solution: Get the politics out. We believe Iran backs palistinians (and i can soo feel u want to mention Syria) and America backs isreal. How about stop backing any1, care for ur own problems and worry about your own terrorism? and that goes for both sides.
I am going to vacation to Syria this summer, and my only consolidation is on one side, palistine is at war, the other, lebanon is having terrosim on its grounds "please tell me u've been updated through ur media on the actual situation", and iraq does not needs intro (heard turkey might be planning to get a piece of the action) but at the end of the day, watch syrian channels and see the people happy.
Humans are animals (scientifically that is accurate), and unless pushed, they don't bite back. SO STOP PUSHING! and yes, slowly the power the mindwashing people have will disappear.
Am i dreamer? the worst cynical pessimist you've ever met.

[Francesco Orsenigo]

[Is Al-Qaeda in Iraq killing Iraqis because of their foreign policy toward Israel? -- Scott]

If only the situation was that simple...
Apparently in Iraq there's a moltitude of forces with so many different interests....
Shias, Sunnis, US, Al-Queda, mercenaries, warlords...
Everyone has it's own agenda, it's own enemies and the civilians are caught in between.

In this case, Al-Queda is attacking police recruitements, as they collaborate with the oppressor.

Saying "they're Muslim" sounds like an easy escape.
If you want to get a feeble picture, you have to investigate Global-Warming-style.

Remember that UK and Ireland are both Christian and this didn't prevented them to wage war against each other with the pretense that one was Catholic and the other Anglican...
Just add poverty, a fallen regime, and a few dozen sub-factions and you have Iraq...

[zorro]

"I don’t think there’s much chance of Israel getting nuked. Even the craziest Muslims wouldn’t irradiate their own holy lands while standing downwind and hoping for the best."

I agree, unfortunately. One key thing about the middle east crisis is Jerusalem. Jews, Christians and Muslims are /never/ going to agree to all share Jerusalem nicely. Hence one thing which needs to be done for peace is to turn Jerusalem into a giant smoking crater, radioactive for 20 million years. Then at least there could be /some/ hope for peace...

[Steveo]

Wow. Who knew that there were so many people right here on the Dilbert blog who not only know how the "terrorists" operate, but what they want, and even how they think.

I'm incredibly impressed. Since none of these people have been to the Middle East. Or read and speak Arabic.

[Geoffrey]

Sure, nutcases will be nutcases. But the closer you get to them, the less likely they are to get nutty in a way that's going to hurt you personally. If the U.S. disconnected itself from Israel and withdrew from the middle east while making itself largely independent of middle eastern oil, the Muslim nutcases would focus their nuttiness elsewhere. After all, there's not a lot of Muslim terrorism in Finland.

[Nick]

I am afraid it has become a generational thing ie the only real solution is to do something (or rather alot of somethings) to stop the terrorists getting more recruits. You then get about 20 years of low level nuisance actions from the remaining hard-core bad guys which goes on until they die or get older and realise its not worth the struggle. Scott you are absolutely correct in thinking there is no way you can change the current terrorist crop's mind on anything - they are a lost cause.

The most important something we can do is to seperate these terrorists from their supporters and the population in general. You do this by giving their supporters something to lose. eg Palestinians who drive Mercedes tend not to want to blow themselves up !

[Amanda]

Don'tunderestimate the power of insanity. Many folks in the Middle East would be perfectly happy to irradiate their own holy lands while standning downwind, and call themselves martyrs for God.

[The Writer Formerly Known as CC]

The Arab world (other than Lebanon) didn't take in any Palestinians because they said they wanted to preserve the Right of Return. That of course, is bullshit. They didn't want to deal with huge masses of poor starving displaced people, so they told them to fuck off and find somewhere else. So they did - in Lebanon where they made camps and stirred up shit that resulted in a 17 year civil war.
The king of Jordan BULLDOZED 10 000 Palestinians in '73 and not a single person said a word about it.
Look at it this way: If a Muslim kills a Muslim, it's all good. If a Christian/anything else kills a Muslim, you're up shit creek.

The Israel/Palestine conflict can be solved but it's in the interest of many groups for it to remain - Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Q, Iran, Iraq etc. Why? It's giving these groups an excuse. it's giving them a "cause" that they claim to be fighting for when all it really is is the establishment of a Muslim Emirate. And the money rolling in is also nice.
These people don't give a flying shit about Palestinians - as others have said, it's a publicity thing, it's leverage. Nuke the shit out of them, but don't forget that normal Palestinians are stuck in the middle and deserve more as humans that to be pounded up the ass by Israel. And if some idiot tells me they elected Hamas I'm going to shove my foot up your ass. They elected the party that promised to stop stealing their money, not because of its terrorist agenda.

have a nice day!

[Haider]

Hi Scott,

There are so many issues tied to this post that it's difficult to choose which topic to deal with. But since I'm a Muslim, and happen to know a thing or two about extremism, and how the Holy Koran can be interpreted (quite easily might I add) to support an extremist agenda, I think I should primarily deal with this issue.

US foreign policy is doomed to fail because it does not recognize the mentality behind Muslim extremism. Extremists are not prepared to surrender under the threat of war. In fact, most extremists would rejoice at the opportunity of martyrdom.

And the more the US pushes for war, the more that Muslims in general, and extremists in particular, would feel that the US is targeting Islam in its assault, and is oppressing the Muslims. Muslims would, therefore, feel compelled to defend their religion and their people by opposing the US, be it politically or militantly. This is where ordinary Muslims concerned for their religion and their well-being turn to extremism..

While Islam teaches that war itself has ethics (e.g. not targeting civilians), most extremists are of the opinion that Muslims are entitled to fight in the same way that they are being fought. So if the US strikes civilians in the Sudan, Al-Qaeda can kill civilians in New York.

My primary denunciation of extremism is in its blind servitude to "divine" commands, even if these commands are completely immoral. The Holy Koran asserts that God will not command the Muslims to be immoral, and it condemns the ancient Arabian practice of burying girls because it is inhumane, but extremists think that God can order anything, irrespective of its morality, and the test of faith is in whether we will follow God's command or not.

This last point is a theological issue which Muslims have been disagreeing about over the ages. Some Muslims assert that God is free in commanding whatever He wishes, whereas another group asserts that God is just, and He will not command us to perform unjust deeds. And where a command seems unjust, we should question the authenticity of the command, rather than scrap justice for the sake of blind servitude.

Again, this issue is extremely broad, and I will need a series of posts to do this topic any justice. I wish I have books to recommend about this issue, but I'm afraid I don't. All I can suggest is that you look into the different understandings of Islam, and what consequences they have.

All the best..
Haider

[swio]

"In five hundred years, they’ll be glad they have more land and water."

Most of the experts I respect on the issue don't believe that Israel will last another hundred years unless it figures out how to make peace with its neighbours. When two nations are unable to make peace, one of them eventually disappears. There is no way Israel can wipe out 300 million Arabs. Its only a matter of time until the Arabs have enough economic wealth and smarts that their 100 to 1 advantage in people makes Israel's position untenable. The Japanese, and the rest of East Asia figured it out. So have the Indians. The Arabs do the same.

You may think the Middle East is permanently fucked because of culture/religion/whatever but you would be wrong. People used to say the same things about every non-white country. Now those people watch their grandchildren lose their jobs to Asians and Indians. The economically fastest growing city world today is in the Middle East but it is not in Israel.

Israel should make peace today because it is still relatively strong and will get the best possile terms. If peace is impossible then Israel is doomed. Even alot of Israeli's understand that. No nation can survive forever against an enemy that vastly outnumbers them.

"If the Palestinians ever display an ability to offer a credible peace, I’m willing to revise my opinion."

I guess you are still pretty clueless about what's really going on in this part of the world. For someone who seems to pride himself on being skeptical of everyone's motives you appear to have somehow not applied this filter in this case. Let me ask the reverse question. Has Israel ever offered credible peace? When Oslo peace process collapsed both sides tried to spin it as being the other sides fault. Who do you think is going to succeed? The Palestinians or the guys with a superpower's worth of public relations at their back?

[Mindy]

You know a country is doomed when war seems to be the only reasonable option.

May you personally never understand why that is true.

[Hammertyme]

Off-topic, but...

I find it interesting that Scott declares truth to be "unavailable" and yet declares various religious beliefs to be untrue.

=========================================================

I think you will find thats because its hard to find the truth with many versions of it running around but its not hard to not believe in a giant man who lives in the sky who will spank you if you dont do what he says!

Also off topic,

How come in the age of mass/wide/instant communication there are no miracles? In the bible they seemed to happen every 10 minutes (of course you have to take somebodys word for that)

[Jaggie]

"God gave them specific real estate"

so just like isreal then..

the fact that dispite admitting their policies are evil you support them because they are logical worries me. Does this say something about the author or about the u.s. in general? how do you define logical? one mans logic is another mans illogic. is that a valid defence? I killed a man because it logically appeared to me that he would kill me if i let him live.

maybe thats the justification for iraq, "it is my logical assumption that they have WOMD therefore it is rational that i should invade and kill as many people as we can because they have WOMD and will use it on me at a future date....even if they don't really have WOMD...but lets not worry about that."

[HAMMERTYME]

Off-topic, but...

I find it interesting that Scott declares truth to be "unavailable" and yet declares various religious beliefs to be untrue.

=========================================================

I think you will find thats because its hard to find the truth with many versions of it running around but its not hard to not believe in a giant man who lives in the sky who will spank you if you dont do what he says!

Also off topic,

How come in the age of mass/wide/instant communication there are no miracles? In the bible they seemed to happen every 10 minutes (of course you have to take somebodys word for that)

[HS]

The problem is the extreme poverty all over the world. It's easy to recruit terrorist in a crowd that has nothing to loose.

I know, they also exist in wealthy nations like Saudi-Arabia, England and U.S.A. BUT I think they are the ones, who you CAN reason with. If U.S.A. started to work more for giving the poor a chance to live, than killing them, I think it would:

1) make the recruiting in poor countries difficult
2) eliminate the reason for rich to turn to terrorism

But the fact remains that U.S.A. can't even take care of it's own poor.

[Mark]

"Group of potential Al-Qaeda members who would become insurance salesmen if we eliminated the motivation for joining Al-Qaeda: really frickin' huge.

Posted by: Luca Masters"

Isn't this a good reason to keep the terrorism alive, then?

[Dansoarr]

I don’t see any difference in the moderations between the 'terrorists' and established governments, including the partial democratic nations of the UK & USA.

BOTH are driven by their selfish nature, creating public support by spin and dare I say lies & the single minded belief that they & their way is Right & the only possible way.

Who is morally in the right will always be decided by the victor and by history. Unfortunately we cannot say that what we have done in the name of freedom and democracy has always been justified correctly.

You only have to look at the position taken by Mr Bush over the planned missile defence system in Eastern Europe, and corner that he is pushing Vladimir Putin and Russia in to, to see that the 'wider' good does not prevail and that individual(s) or national priorities always come first.

Even when to those on the outside or maybe the more objective observers can see the ramifications of these actions. Bush will today enflame the USA / Russia issue by directly criticising Russia at the G8 summit, by discussing the problems of introducing true democracy in to nations such as Russia. Rather than dealing with the problem that is being created by the apparent undermining of the mutual destruction principle that ended the Cold War.

Who’s’ interests are being served here ? Not the World, not the West, not Europe in fact the interest is solely the USA’s or at least the Bush administration.

Remember that terrorism was openly backed by the USA, who supported the bombing of London by the IRA. I remember being in the states when there were open open collections for the IRA on the streets, but i guess that was OK because they wer'nt bombing you.

The intollerance shown in th modern world by all the major powers will ultimatly alwasy fuel the rage in others, the Guantanamo Court ruling is a good example. Inevitably Terrorism will continue. . .

[Downie]

Only psychopaths and economists believe in the pursuit of self-interest (I think there was a game theorem experiment that actually demonstrated this). I think this applies to national self-interest as well. Good people aren't hung up on which country or racial group people come from. Good people want to help everyone.
It is very hard for the Israelis to find a solution that stops people from hurting them. The more they impose anti-terrorism restrictions that harm innocents, the more neutrals will become anti-Israelis and the more moderates will turn extremist. If they actually went and stole as much land as possible, as you seem to be recommending, all normal people would turn against them; I'm fairly sure they'd be subjected to European economic sanctions, at the very least. The one thing they can do fairly easily is make things a bit less miserable for the Palestinians; stop discriminating against them in water provision, to take a random example. Good people wouldn't ask: does this help Israel? No-one can be sure of that. A good person would ask, does this help anyone?

[WCE]

I have a solution to the problem of terrorist cells operating beyond the reach of our means of killing them directly.

Take the Gitmo prisoners, the ones that were actually caught doing something, and introduce them to meth.

Once they're addicted (like, 30 seconds after taking their first hit) show them how to make meth from scratch.

Then, drop them back off where they were captured.

Meth addicts are first and foremost Meth Addicts. Meth becomes their #1 priority, above family, kids, religion, or self-respect. Half the male prostitutes on the street aren't homosexuals, not in the sense that they enjoy homosexual sex any more than you would, they just consider it the only way to make money to buy meth. Think about how desperate you'd have to be to be willing to perform oral sex on another guy, and recognize that these hustlers feel the same way about the sexual act, but figure it's worth it for the drug-money.

Meth itself readjusts peoples' priorities, it's the first thing it does when it hits their brains. That's what the first "rush" is, the meth re-wiring the brain. And they always remember their first rush fondly, taking more and more meth in hopes of getting another rush like it.

Meth addiction is contagious, people give it to their friends. Meth makes you want to have sex for 12 hours at a time. If you do meth, you'll want a girlfriend who's up for the whole 12-hour sex thing, so you give the girl meth right before sex. She ends up a meth addict herself, also liking the 12-hour sex thing, and so she'll find another guy when you aren't available and make him an offer he can't refuse, and he'll become a meth addict, and so the cycle repeats.

If you want to see this up close, you only have to visit the midwest or south and ask any cop. It's a plague.

So there's the beauty of the plan. Release the known terrorists as soon as they become meth addicts back into their home turf. They'll pass along their addiction to all their terrorist friends, and it'll spread through the whole of the terrorist network, regardless of how tenuous the connections between the cells, and pretty soon their first, last, and only priority will be doing meth.

If you think a crazed terrorist high on meth is worse than a crazed terrorist who isn't, I suggest you watch "The Salton Sea" with Val Kilmer. It's a surprisingly accurate portrayal of meth addiction (all except the end where he quits doing meth).

BTW, I suggested this to the CIA, and it was rejected on humanitarian grounds. For what that's worth, meth addiction is considered by the CIA to be too harsh a weapon to use against terrorists.

[Kevin Gibbs]

You only have to look at the Irish Republican Army to see what "gettiing what you want" means... Tons of splinter groups...

"Old Ira" led to the "IRA" led to "Official IRA" led to "Provisional IRA" led to "Continuity IRA", led to "The Real IRA"

[Holt]

Many of the comments on here are alarming.
Some people seem to think that the Middle East is all like Iraq or Iran. Oh so terrible non democratic states with horrible tyrants for leaders. And therefore they're all a threat and should be killed.

I mean seriously, who's the terrorist here?

For a start, you've clearly never been to the middle east or watched an unbiased documentary about life there. I lived in the UAE from birth to age 16. They may not be democratic but they sure as hell run a country well. And they're not all terrorists FYI.

It seems the large majority of Americans seem to think that democracy is the fix all solution to bad governments and that anything that isn't a democracy must be a horrible nazi like tyranny.
Sometimes the person who is born into power can be a really good leader. And sometimes the person elected into power can be the worst leader ever.
In Dubai, UAE, the Sheikh is very popular and under him the city is growing into a London/Hong Kong of the middle east. Whereas look at the US president. Why is a person who is disliked by 58% of his country (Newsweek Jan 07 poll) and clearly isn't doing a good job of it still running it?

Scott, your point about Terrorists staying terrorists and not going back even if their demands are met may be valid.
But you have failed to acknowledge the fact that if the demands are met, ordinary people who may have become terrorists will no longer feel the need to.

Their reasons are two fold - Freedom and land etc for their people and revenge for their family.
So even if you give freedom and land to their people, revenge will remain. You can't take out the need for revenge. But you can prevent them from wanting to take revenge in the first place.

Stop bombing their homes. Stop killing their families and friends and maybe, just maybe, given time, the current terrorists will simply die out without any others to take their place.

[Gandalf]

Right, the only peace Israel can ever have is whatever peace they can buy with blood. Unless, of course, all of israelis decide to convert to Islam and move out of middle east.

[Silvox]

Reminds me of the M S also

[Silvox]

There is always gay community

[David]

You should do some serious research into the motivations of the Islamic imperialists, or Islamic fascists, terrorists (less accurate label), or whatever you want to call them. This is world view that aims to conquer completely. It's not about hatred, or local conflicts with the Palestinians, this conflict is a lot older then that. The only way to "give them what they want" is for all of us to convert to the most extreme form of Islam.

[Martin Stennert]

Actually, terrorist have walked away from being terrorists and started being insurance salesmen - or other ordinary civilians: Either after the sort of disarmament-amnesty deal they did in Northern Ireland, or like when the government of Eastern Germany gave members of the (West) German "Red Army Faction" asylum. So perhaps one shouldn't unserestimate the desire of (some) terrorists to return to a "normal" life and create possibilities for them to do so.

[CKGO]

Terrorism, global warming, whatever....they are not going away in the near future, atleast not while you live...so go get your share Scott.

[Michele]

"There isn't enough evidence to say that there is a correlation between religious beliefs and violent behavior."

Hey, Brian, it's called "jihad".

Why is it considered some right wing loony idea to believe that many of these terrorists (and the countries that support them like Iran) are interested in creating a new islamic caliphate through force and fear, beginning with the annihilation of Isreal? They will tell you that themselves. Just read the words of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad when he's speaking to his own people. That's why the terrorism is being bankrolled by "bazillionaires" like Bin Laden, it's religious jihad. Is the rest of the world supposed to bend over and take it because the western world has learned to ignore the power of religious extremism for fear someone might turn around and shout "The Crusades! The Inquisition!" at us? I'm sorry, but in my neck of the woods, Christian fathers aren't videotaping their 12 year olds decapitating "infidels". And don't give me this poor disenfranchised nation bullcrap. There are plenty of people in the world who need our help and would gladly take it without strapping on bomb belts when we're not looking.

[Rach]

I agree. You are awesome.

[Mark James Bowness]

This is a very complex issue on grand, major scales. Some of your thinking has got some good points to it. But it's probably only one side of a MASSIVE mountain. Some people have mentioned that you should not really talk about this kind of stuff. Well, we all have a right too and debate is good because debate leads to understanding and thats what we all need to do in this situation, understand.

Mark Bowness

[Martin Stennert]

While much of what you write has merit, I think you shouldn't forget the time spans involved: The foundation for the current problems in the Middle East were laid in the 1950s in the aftermath of the second world war, the founding of the Israel state, the end of the Ottoman Empire, and the end of (mainly) British colonial presence - although a point could be made for the colonial presence itself already playing a very large part.

So while walking towards those nations now with attempts to better their situation both economically and concerning their cultural self-respect will probably have NO impact on the current Al Quade terrorists, it may go a long way to preventing new generations of terrorists springing up in the next 20, 50 or 100 years, who will then be out to kill our children and grandchildren. (Although one shouldn't underestimate the desire for peace in the general population either - just look how fast the situation in Northern Ireland bettered itself in the mere 20 years between 1980 and 2000)

Of course it's unfair that we have to shoulder the burden of picking up the broken pieces left us by our own grandparents, that should not stop us from preventing making the same mistakes for our descendents.

[Tom H]

Good grief. Two posts in a row where you're completely & absolutely correct! I'm flabbergasted.

Incidently, my definition of "completely & absolutely correct" is "agrees with my position". It's just the only definition that makes any sense - from my position.

[CDric]

Did you forget that most muslims are (really really) crazy ?

They are not normal people like you and me, they can't think properly. They are mad about jews, israel, black people, white people, christians and chinese also.

This is not propaganda, I live in France and here, we live amongst muslims, but you must never forget that you can't trust an arab. The best is to avoid looking at them and absolutely never talk to them.

[CDric]

scott, my interesting comment is considered as a spam

[conan]

um ... scott not for president any more ...

[Nicholas Blaiklock]

@ Chris Tann, LAWNMOWER MAN good point about needing a common enemy for humanity to work together to beat; however I would think poverty, AIDS, cancer, environmental changes etc would count as those?

[Terry Franchetti]

First of all, what brought about this change of opinion?

Second, 'It isn't working now so let's carry on doing it?'

While I agree that those who are terrorists now will probably not stop (not for many years anyway), the West can cut off their flow of recruits, funding, resources and recruits by simply making the lives of the ordinary people of the Middle East better.

Making other lives better is tricky of course but we can at least stop making them worse.

[Amit Schreiber]

Hi Scott,

Being an Israeli all my life (30 years), here are my thoughts on your post:
I didn't know your previous opinion was that Israel is powerful enough to maintain itself without US support. I doubt this was ever true (past or present).

Personally, I am all for leaving the occupied territories to the Palestinian people. When Israel left the Gaza Strip not too long ago I was overjoyed. However, now "legal" Israeli cities (inside the official border) are under attack by rocket fire on a daily basis. This comes as a "proof" that terrorists no longer need a valid, logical, reason to keep fighting.

Unfortunately, I believe there is too much happening under the surface to have an informed-enough opinion. Let me explain: while the Gaza Strip situation doesn't seem to get better, on the other hand we haven't had a suicide bomber attack in a while now. Israel's official stand on this issue is: "they haven't stopped trying, we're just better at preventing these attacks." The terrorist groups official stand on this issue is: "we won't stop trying. Israel must be annihilated." This reminds me on your post "Dog Catches Car" (http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/dog_catches_car.html ), in which you mentioned that Hamas has no choice but to keep making war threats while acting differently. That's why I think there's a lot of stuff we're not told so no one can make an informed opinion on this issue.

Unlike your current opinion, I still support giving the occupied territories to the Palestinian people, even if the attacks don't stop. I still have hope that contractual peace will come once all territorial disputes are settled, and following that (in the "Dog Catches Car" spirit) real peace will come. Naturally, Israel is divided exactly on that point and each Israeli citizen is typed as either a left-wing supporter (for returning occupied territories) or a right-wing supporter (for keeping them). The last few years there seems to be some agreement that some territories should be given to the Palestinians. A proof of that is that the dominating party in Israel these days, which originated from a right-wing party, is the one that orchestrated the Gaza Strip return.

IMHO, the Israeli benefits of peace (if only contractual) outnumber the benefits of "more land and water" in the future. For one, maybe Israel can direct money to developing its education and the economy instead of having a gigantic military budget, designed to be ready for an attack from surrounding enemies. An example of such peace is the kind of peace Israel has with Egypt - it's almost only contractual (hardly any relationship between the countries) but the number of attacks dropped to zero.

[Xena]

Some anagrams of "Rational Evil"

A Violent Liar

Tore A Villain

A Trivial Noel

A Later Violin

[Kevin Kunreuther]

So, if we followed my plan of kicking everybody out of Israel/Palestine and resettling them in reservations in Montana (Israelis) and West Texas (Palestinians), 'twould be useless because by now terrorism as practised by Al-Qaeda splinter cells is not so much a movement as it is now a lifestyle (how West Coast). No matter what solution we arriva at to appease everyone, the terrorists will always pop up like one more infernal nest of cockroaches, bringing havocto anything close to civilisation, because that is their nature.
All hail GWBush and Dick Cheney for fomenting this Forever War and creating the eventual downfall of American Western cultural, military and economic dominance. There won't be an end of days or a Rapture - just stagnation and a Rupture.

[Jonathan]

Scott - What happened to your 80% rule? A lot of these guys just don't want foreign troops marching around their country - and hey, neither would I, neither would you, and neither would your readers. If foreign troops pulled out of Iraq & Afghanistan, I suspect 80% of the so-called "terrorists" would be happy with that and go back to their normal lives. And by that I mean they'd go back to shooting each other as they have for centuries. The other 20% won't stop until they've wiped out all life on Earth, but feh - it's going to happen in 10 billion years anyway, so why worry?

[Marco]

Scott writes:

"If we remove all the original reasons for Al-Qaeda’s existence, I believe they would find new ones. It is unlikely the members of terror cells would decide to quit and become insurance salesmen."

To my knowledge, that's what happened in Colombia. Terrorism is rampant there, but I don't think anyone remembers the actual political reasons why the terrorist cells began in the first place. Now they're terrorists because that's the only job they know how to do, but they need some income, so they kidnap tourists, extort local farmers and do business with drug lords. No matter what happens politically in Colombia now, the terrorists aren't going to hang up their guns and "become insurance salesmen."

[Kevin Carson]

I don't think the real question was ever whether a change in foreign policy would make Al Qaeda change its mind.

Al Qaeda is able to carry on its war, and make new recruits, because it has so much popular sympathy in the Muslim world. A change in policy may not touch the motivations of Al Qaeda's organizational hard core, but it sure as hell will touch the perceptions of its popular base. The purpose of a change in foreign policy is to dry up the sea of popular sympathy that Al Qaeda swims in, along with its supply of new recruits.

The Bushites like to ask the rhetorical question "what could we do that would possibly make them hate us less?" But the supply of "them" is not fixed. Al Qaeda has an endless stream of thousands of NEW "them," primarily of popular resentment of American foreign policy on the American street.

The purpose of a change in policy is not to change Al Qaeda's mind. It is to stop actively recruiting followers for Al Qaeda.

[Kilgore J. Trout]

What ever happens happens. Things were a lot more fucked during the American Civil War, WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam and a lot of other wars. More people were lost on beach invasions in a single day than this whole war. You must admit that the bastards are really getting worn down. People are getting rich on all kinds of security measures. The schemes of those getting caught are getting more and more retarded. You really can't be a house full of muslim men and not garner attention anymore, come on. Even Tony Soprano is helping out.

[Tony]

'My parents gave me a moral compass... but I smashed it'

If you condone that which you believe to be evil, you must be evil yourself. Are you comfortable with that label?

[ralf]

Dear Scott,

I agree with you that it is quite impossible for terrorist to become insurance brokers. In South Africa the children of the Anti-Arpatheid age have lost their youth and education and are now hardened criminals. But in Palestine there is a small difference. The terrorist have become leaders of their autonomous state. Of course they are totally incompetent politicians (even more so then we have in the west) and the only thing they know is to reap the rewards of their "win", i.e. get corrupt and pocket money themselves.

I was in Palestine back in 1999 and that was a time shortly after Oslo, when Palestine got their autonomy and the future was looking bright. The Palestines were extremely happy and proud (never underestimate the power of raising your "own" flag or issuing your own stamps). This was a time of very few terrorist attacks and more importantly of very few new recruits for terrorist cells.

When the Israelis (or Americans) bomb a house in order to target some terrorist and there is some collateral damage (who introduced this word should be shot on site), i.e. innocent people are being murdered, then these people have families (and family ties are stronger in the Middle East than in Europe). What do you think, these relatives will think? Thank you America/Israel for killing the terrorist? Or will they hate the one responsible for killing their family members? Stop this and there will be a (slow) change in perception. And as we see in the west today, a lot of people prefer security/safety to freedom/democracy (otherwise our politicians would not be so successfull in dismantling our rights). The same is true in the Middle East. So give them safety (and this is where Iraq went terribly wrong, under Saddam there was security. If you know how to behave, then you could live your life in relative safety. Today you can go vote but every day there is a good risk that you will be killed).

There is one additional aspect: Education. Most islamic states do not invest enough in education and the public schools if existent are a disgrace. But oil money has enabled the Moslems (the Saudis mainly with their ultra-conservative-fundametalist Islam) to build up a school system of their own with "free" education for everyone. ("free" being relative, the kids are indoctrinated to become fundamentalist moslems themselves). So there must be an investment in education from the west.

This in my opinion is the only possible solution to get to peace. Of course this is a long-term strategy and will take maybe 40 years, way too much for any politician to consider.

P.S.
Also if the U.S.A. again start behaving like a civilized country then at least the europeans might like america again:-) (Personally I would love to like america again, your constitution is a marvel, your people are in general very friendly, ...).

[Joe]

Because you like to test your own logic and have a well advanced bullshit meter:

Why do we all believe in Al-Queda? Where is the evidence that this incredibly sophisticated organisation even exists apart from claims by paranoid Governments and loopy extemists, both who have a vested interest in a fearful population beliving in some global arch criminal mastermind?

Love to see some evidence...

You also look for objectives that are rational for terrorism. Remember, these are human beings. I think we should be searching for "objectives" that are human - such as the search for recognition and a place in the world. If we start thinking about "treating" basic human problems instead of fixing foreign policy problems or fighting so called "irrational terrorists" then we might be getting somewhere.

The Islamic world used to be great. Now, well, we know what it's like over there. But they still want to be great.

We just have to make all the crazy people feel good about themselves and their countries without getting into a self righteous rage and blowing things up.

For a way of thinking about it, imagine what would happen if the US suddenly wasn't the most important place in the world, there would probably be nukes flying everywhere.

Or another way, getting really too far down the road of shameless amatuer phsychology - The relationship bully in the playground (US) and the crazy kid who just can't get it together and has that dangerous look in his eyes...

[Michael]

Gee, Israel has a much older claim to the land than anyone else.

Historically they go back at least 670 bc in that location according to the historical documents of babylonia.
Then of course we also have the massive documentation of accountancy crazed republic rome.

Juda(As the current nation of Israel should have been named) had much more claims to the land than the palestinians.

Plus, palestinians are idiots.

[Rasional]

Im not sure america wants to stop terrorism . If it does whats this deal with Guantanamo(as far as i recall no apology was issued and the govermont official line to american people was to paraphase a radio host " blowing off a little steam" . The terrorists assume the usa to be a nation of godless decadent invididuals and the guantanamo fiasco affirms that judgement .) and why was Saddam executed on korban a muslim religious holiday . Are they intentionally trying to p** the terrorists off? What if the terrorists executed bush on christmas ? Relatively the same thing .
If you wanna stop terrorisim indict Bush as a war criminal and that will convince the terrorists that America isnt a nation of rehetoric and doublespeak

[KOLON]

Doublethink!!! Doublethink!!! Duckspeak , big brother Fascists evangelical extremists stupid SWEJ! SWEJ ! SWEJ !
SWEJ! SWEJ!
Jesus will return and all you atheists will be annihilated
and utopia will rule forever !! submit now or die!!!! SWEJ ! SWEJ ! SWEJ ! SWEJ !
i apologize for your sins
im gonna bring up the dead now ! biblepower!

[Hurda]

I'm absolutely with you Scott.

A lot of commnets is amde against you, but they are so off the point.

HEY PEOPLE try to imagine,m that someone can think otherwise than you do! IF they are not used to live more than 70 years, it comes natural to them to die earliey. And yes warwage can be their way of life. And it's absolutely not pissible to stop war from abovein the system of terrorism group.

[Anne Yenny]

"While I think Israel’s policies are a dark grey form of evil." WTF?????

Scott: Would love for you to explain exactly what is evil about Israel's policies. Their country was voted on and sanctioned fair and square by the UN. BTW, a lot of that land was purchased. The land they have grabbed since then they had to because people kept lobbing bombs from there.

This perpetual state of "refugee" that the Palestinians find themselves in is the fault of their Arab neighbors. Why is Israel expected to do for the Palestinians that which their fellow Arabs will not?

Scott, you fancy yourself as logical. And you may well be. But you have to stop assuming that everyone is as logical and rational as you.

And it's silly to attempt to draw some sort of analogy between suicide bombers and born again Christians. You should never judge people's beliefs; you can only judge their behavior. What do I care if someone believes in the Rapture. Until we have a problem with Christians flying planes into buildings, there is no comparison.

We're in a world of shit right now because the world is a shitty place. Anyone who thinks this animosity towards the US is anything recent didn't travel in Europe when Reagan was president.

The world is like your kids: They're going to hate you no matter what you do; they may as well hate you because you did the right thing.

[Ian]

Every mother has a broom.

All most families want is to be sure that no one's going to take away what they've got, to make their living in peace, and that it will be the same tomorrow as it was today. It's really, really boring, but that's what people want - especially those who don't have a really strong grip on such a middle-class heaven.

The "savage and irrational" Palestinians are people too. They're just seriously pissed-off people. Maybe they will always be pissed off, but at the moment I think they're cranky because they aren't allowed to just live in peace and earn their living. They want a clean house, someone to love, and the chance for their children to have a happy life.

It doesn't seem that hard. It's just that somewhere in the mix will be some asshole wanting more than their fair share.

[Kristina L.]

I think that if we in the USA had to deal with half of what Israel had to deal with, we'd have been a lot meaner to our enemies than they've been.

If I understand it properly, and I might not, the Israelies have had people trying to kill them ever since they moved back to Israel. I don't know that they ever had many options.

This post reminded me of "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" (By John Perkins), which I'm listening to as a freebie from Audible (Wired mag had a special with them).. And the state of the world makes a lot more sense the more I hear from it. I'm still digesting and haven't done the fact checking that I need to do to recommend this to everyone, but you should give it a read if you haven't yet. Democracy Now has a little bit about it here:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251