Natural Meat Eaters

As a vegetarian, I often find myself drawn into debates about whether humans are natural meat-eaters. I’d have to say “almost.”

Clearly meat is nutritious for humans, our teeth can handle the job, and most meat-eaters love a well-cooked steak. But to say we are natural meat-eaters, I would think two things would have to be true:

1. Eating lots of meat wouldn’t increase your health risks.
2. Seeing a cow would make you salivate if you were hungry.

For now, I will ignore the first point because experience tells me that meat-eaters will argue to the death (literally) that eating meat has no health risks.

The interesting point, to me, is why so-called natural meat eaters feel the need to disguise their food by cutting it into steaks, cooking it, and covering it with barbecue sauce. If eating meat is natural, you would expect it to make you hungry in its natural condition. Looking at a cow should make you salivate when you are hungry.

Am I wrong?

[Update: To answer your rhetorical questions, yes, I do salivate when seeing raw vegetables and fruit. An orange or banana would make most people salivate if they were hungry. But I also like raw peas in a pod, even raw potatoes.]

Comments

[Lauso]

Some vegetables are eatable right out of the earth and some are not. Have you ever eaten a corn plant or a still wrapped corn? Have you dug frenetically a cassava (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassava)? After prepared, though, I am sure they would make you salivate.

The same is valid for meat. I won't salivate for a cow, but I will salivate for when I smell it being baked, the fat drops falling on the coal and telling the whole neighborhood that today is barbecue day.

Regarding being healthy or not, you should know by now (after discussing evolution so many times) that what does not kill you before you reproduce, won't be filtered by the evolution. Hence, there may be people who are better not eating meet yes, because these would not be filtered either, but you cannot generalize.

[azim]

If it was not meant for us to eat Meat, then I am sure our Body will not be able to take it, like Goat cannot eat meat as their body is not engineered to eat meat. and there is this another way to look at things is that, if eating meat was not enggineered or not for human body, i really wonder what people in desert or eskimos will have to eat. if we look at things at a larger picture - if we all stop eating chicken or meat for a week and keep the same production level for that week, imagine the ecological balance chaos that we might have.
let me know your thoughts on the same.
thanks
Azim

[Yo mamma]

-Not eating meat is bad for your health because it's very difficult to get all of the proper nutrients (especially for vegans)
-If we weren't natural meat eaters our teeth wouldn't be bult to handle meat (you already said this)
-Where I was born (in jordan) people aren't as afraid of where meat comes from as they are here. Parents take there kids to the farm to watch the goat get slaughtered before they take it home for dinner, the meat store has full animal bodies that are still shaped like the animal it came from, because they never bothered processing it as much.
Long story short: When I'm hungry and I see a cow, the first thing that pops into my head is lunch.

[tataold]

Honestly, I do salivate when I see a cow or a chicken, especially when I'm hungry. And I love all raw seafood.

[Fred]

Hey man, I love Vegs, but I don't usually salivate when I see them… Come to think of it, I don't think I salivate with anything I don't eat raw or unprocessed I guess… And you have to think of vegetables on a field, like a cow; not as you see them at a supermarket or whatever.
Anyway, does this mean I shouldn't eat at all? =p
But to draw a conclusion, you have to think that we humans have only 2 stomachs (meat-eater), not 4 like the vegetarian animals. And we cannot process some sorts of vegetable-nutrients (like celulose).
But that's just a thought! We are scientifically considered omnivorous.

[Leslie]

Scott, perhaps it's in between. I don't think we're natural born vegetarians, but that doesn't mean we're naturally meat eaters. Perhaps we're more like natural born scavengers - we just eat whatever we can get. I think of situations with feral children for example. My understanding is that in those situations, they just eat whatever they have to. And clearly our digestive systems can handle it within a reasonable degree. Plus, throughout human history as far as I can tell, we've hunted animals. I guess there's no way to find out for certain without doing some sort of forbidden experiment, but I think the evidence at least leans against us being natural vegetarians.

[Scott]

What Denis Leary didn't consider is that maybe eating meat is not actually an instinct but rather an encouraged activity as a result of our culture.

As a life long vegetarian I have never had the temptation to slam down a whopper or buy myself a hotdog. Maybe if I had been raised in a family with backyard bbq's and trips to mcdonald's I would be somewhat more inclined but as it is I'm not. What I think this really boils down to is nature vs. nuture... in a different sense.

Are we naturally born to eat meat or is it a learned habit?

[SlowMovingTarget]

The Genesis account suggests we were all intended to be vegetarians, but circumstances required us to supplement our diet with occasional meat after the flood.

The main point of interest is that a diet of _occasional_ meat can be healthy. This diet was followed for thousands of years by the Israelites and they often had lifespans comparable to our current averages (epigenetics? really high "good" cholesterol?).

Perhaps we know enough now to do without meat, but it's likely easier to maintain a vegetarian focussed diet with a nice lean steak every couple of weeks.

FWIW

[Leslie]

I'm actually a huge fan of seafood, as I've spent much of my life around major bodies of water in some form ... and I gotta say, seeing a nice freshly caught fish, or a big pile of fresh shrimp, could very easily make me salivate as I think of all the delicious meals I can make with it. Actually it's making me salivate right now.

[Too Complicated]

This argument adds unnecessary complexity.

Denis Leary said it best: "Being a vegetarian is a decision. Being a meat eater is an instinct."

[Razwell]

The low saturated fat diet does NOT lower myocardial infarctions (heart attacks) , CHD mortality OR total mortality

This is from the Oxford European Heart Journal where they did a review of the clinical dietary intervention trials on saturated fat . 6 of the 18 to date are discussed.

The most recent is the Women's Health Initiative 2006

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/1/18.pdf

Remember all anti saturate dfat hyperbole is scientifically unfounded RPOPAGANDA from SECOND HAND sources like your doctor the media .

[Maura]

I once ate a low-fat veggie diet for a month, based on Dr. Dean Ornish's advice. It was ok - that was a busy month, so I didn't have time to get upset over what I might be missing.

At the end of that month, I saw a raw chicken in the grocery store, and I was immediately hit with the image of that chicken, fully roasted, with steam wafting up. I swear I could smell it. I felt like I was in a Warner Bros. cartoon. It was a full-on hallucinatory experience. I went back to meat.

[Razwell]

Please read the PRIMARY literature on this subject of saturated fat.

IGNORE second hand info from doctors, the media, vegetarian propaganda and "health" authorities"

When confronted with the FACTS that a low saturated fat diet is NOT supported by the available evidence from clinical trials to date and COMPLETELY FAILS to reduce myocardial infactions, CHD mortality OR total mortality people always rely on the "appeal to authority" the "ad hominem" or the "hasty generalization" logical FALLACIES.

Here is a review on the clinical dietary intervention tials on saturated fat from thhe Oxfoird European Heart Journal. Take the references and read the PRIMARY literature FULL TEXT and VERY CAREFULLY.

You will see the low saturated fat diet is not scientifically supported by randomized double blinded clinical dietary intervention trials

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/1/18.pdf

Once again the low saturated fat diet COMPLETELY FAILS to reduce myocardial infactions, CHD mortality or total mortality in clinical dietary intervention trials .

Appeal to Authority" does NOT further knowledge in any field.

The low saturated fat diet is the greatest medical scam ever perpetrated on the public .

Razwell

[Canadian Cousin]

The natural state for a potato is covered with dirt. Do you wash your vegetables? Then it is no longer in its natural state.

[Murky]

Andrew: I agree with that sentiment, not for the fluffy bunny reasons of 'if people had to kill the cow then fewer cows would be killed', but simply because people should know where their food comes from.

In the UK we recently had a small series of programmes about the poultry industry. In one of the programmes a chap kept two sheds of chickens, one under intensive conditions, one under free range conditions - and then compared the results (in short, if you want your food sitting in it's own excrement and getting hock burns, go intensive). This was all by way of launching the 'Chicken Out' campaign to try and promote animal welfare in food choice.

In another show, we saw the whole process, from Mechanically Recovered Meat, to 'RSPCA Freedom food' to free range. The chef (a well known chef in the UK) cooked with the MRM to show how something reasonably appetising could be produced - and indeed, how things are produced for ready meals.

Near the end, a chicken was killed in the studio to show how it was done (swiftly and with style) and then chicken dinners were prepared.

Links:
http://www.channel4.com/food/on-tv/jamie-oliver/jamie-s-fowl-dinners-facts-08-01-08_p_1.html

http://www.chickenout.tv/

[Sam]

I think we would salivate upon seeing a cow *IF* we would still be used to hunt our food.

Salivating is a conditioned thing, not something from our genes - just think about Pavlows dog, which salivated when hearing a bell.

[RedneckInNY]

There was a study done that people with type-O blood required eating red meat in order to maintain good health, whereas people with type-A, type-B and type-AB can "survive" on fruits and vegetables with a minimal intake of red meat. It is estimated that 70% of the population is type-O. If forced to go to an all vegan diet, these people will essentially be condemned to a death sentence - and cruel and inhumane one at that.

So if those of you who are type-A, B or AB and wish to go on an all vegan diet, more power to you. That means more (red) meat for us :)

[Mauro Cicognini]

Maybe a bit on the side of the argument... but one shouldn't try to read through this on an empty stomach ;-)

[Jeff]

I just got done eating lunch and the thought a whole cow for my consumption alone made me salivate. It is just that we have been trained over the years that cows need to be butchered first however your suggestion of just eating a whole cow sounds pretty good.

[argenbert]

mmm i'm not sure if is a valid point.

the "disguising" of the meat is not as much a biological need but a cultural need. In Argentina meat is rarely eat with anything on the top. In other countries meat is served raw (of course also fish but it's not the issue)

it's almost the same thing with cooking it; It's conditionig the food. The same thing with washing vegetables (think about their natural condition).

about salivating with the view-of-da-cow , i'm not sure also. even when the hunting instincts still linger, i don't think we still have the impulse to try to outrun the cow and kill it.

[Daniela]

Will vegetarians and non-vegetarians ever get over their compulsion to argue which way of life holds the most benefits? Have people ever argued over the question whether blue shirts are preferable to green ones with quite as much passion? Why not?

Dear vegetarians, I love meat, but I never tried to coerce one of you to do likewise, so please just eat your leafy lunch and keep quiet about it.
Dear non-vegetarians, think about it: the more vegetarians there are, the more meat is left for us.

Besides, since I killed i pigeon for lunch at my grandparents' place many, many years ago, i think i am now licensed to eat just whatever pleases me. Ain't I lucky.

[Joy Forever]

I do salivate at the sight and smell of raw fish in a fish market, so...

[sean]

scott, you're salivation analogy is misleading.
1. a raw vegetable is a lot closer to the finished product than a cow is. does a bag of grain seed make you salivate (you need to imagine the end product, like w/ the cow)

2. asking if a cow makes us salivate is somewhat irrelevant. the question should be "does meat make you salivate"

3. why would my pavlovian response to seeing a cow (or a steak, or tomato) have anything to do w/ what is "natural"? i've been trained to salivate when i see a steak at a restaurant; if i had been trained to hunt, butcher, and cook a cow, then for sure i would salivate when i saw a cow.

4. i believe that we are truly natural omnivores --- when we are hungry enough, we salivate looking at almost anything.

[Caliban Darklock]

The reasoning here appears to rest on faulty premises. I salivate when I see attractive women. Does that mean I'm meant to be a cannibal?

[Peter]

Eating the wrong sort of vegetable definitely has health risks. There are lots and lots of poisonous plants out there, and many more (such as peanuts) that are poisonous to a non-trivial portion of the population.

Blowfish aside, most meat won't kill you right away. The health risks accumulate over many decades, but after many decades we were all designed to be dead anyway. Who says living past your prime reproductive years is natural?

[Pandu]

Scott,

Your arguments need a little work. All you're proving is that most of your readers are ethically impoverished.

[Pandu]

Scott,

Your arguments need a little work. All you're proving is that most of your readers are ethically impoverished.

[Peh]

Well of course I dont salivate at the sight of a cow, but then I dont salivate at the sight of a cucumber either. Now, that isnt to say I don't salivate at the sight of an animal being processed. I distinctly remember being in a small town when I was younger and I closely followed the process of cleaning a pig, satrting from right after it's death(I've tried my hand at cleaning fish but I dont particularly like the taste of fish). Now, watching the pig being prepared for cooking definitely made me start to salivate.

[Sebastián]

I totally agree with Scott's post, I've always said that meat "packaging" is one of the main things that keep meat-eaters from vomiting what they eat. Also the names given to food play a huge role in hiding what food really is. "Hamburger" sounds less cruel than "tortured, brutally slain and processed cow" (what it really is).

[Johno]

A few people have said that meat is full of hormones that can move up the food chain.

1) In Australia it has been illegal to give chickens or cattle growth hormones (and even when it was done, it was too expensive to do it generally. It was a technique used to make male chickens develop the more generous meat of female chickens. So more accurately it should be "female hormones" rather than "growth hormones".) since the 1960s. I don't know for sure, but I'll be willing to bet that other countries have similar laws. "Growth promoters" used to be marketed as "antibiotics," but arent; their effects are closer to what we might call "disinfectants", but they are able to be mixed with animal feed. They result in healthier animals, and healthy animals grow larger.

2) Even if hormones were allowed, they are proteins. Proteins denature when heated. Even if they didn't, human and animal proteins are very different, so the chances of a growth hormone that works on a chicken having similar effects on you are very small. Even if they weren't, your stomach breaks proteins down into amino acids during digestion. Snake venom (another hormone) is fatal if injected, but if you swallow it it would actually be mildly good for you (if a disgusting thought!); and hormones are similar in this respect. Doses of hormones for therapeutic use have to be very large and/or protected by a coating so that the drug actually makes it into the bloodstream.

[Gibbles]

Be a little careful with those raw potatoes..

[Drake]

I salivate whenever I see an attractive blonde woman with big breasts. Logically, then, I must be a cannibal.

[Mayuresh Phadke]

Many people seem to prefer Vegetarian diets because they think that Non-Vegetarian diets are cruel to animals.

Actually plants do get killed for Vegetarian food. Actually there is much more violence involved in getting the Vegetarian food to the table.

I prefer Vegetarian food for a different reason. I think that Vegetarian food is actually "Alive" till we eat it. Potatoes would regrow into a plant if put back into the soil.

Since the food is "Alive" it does not get spoilt and contains more nutrition. Meat on the other hand is "Dead" and starts decaying the moment the animal is killed.

Veg is the way to go !

[Andy Coulter]

When I was at the county fair one time, I was petting the pigs and think how good they would taste. You can't help it if you're some kind of mutant.

[Barney]

Not that I took the time to read 600 comments...
But this is more a social conditioning thing.
Most of us don't eat raw meat.
And none - I hope, will bludgeon a cow to death and gnaw on its hide. There is a lot of work in going from cow - to steak.
I live in China, and people eat chickens feet, and they salivate over that. Stews come with the whole chicken in it. That'll gross out most westerners, who don't like to see the heads on things they will eat. Where as in Canton the head is the best bit!
So in short - I reject your hypothesis!

[Zaphod Tralfamadore]

1. Fish. It is common to be served a fish platter with the head still attached. Also, sushi is an example of raw meat which I find delicious.

2. Turkey & chicken is commonly in a recognizable form when brought to the table. The feathers are removed (i.e. corn is de-husked) and the guts are removed (i.e. de-pitting an avocado or de-coring an apple). Just as with fruits and veggies, the "junk" parts are removed during preparation.

3. Do you drool at the site of a corn field? Not me- and I LOVE corn. I don't drool at the site of a cow either. I've never walked up to a cow and taken a bite out of it. The same could be said for a pineapple. However, slice it open, and I will begin drooling immediately. I think a juicy pineapple and rare steak dripping with blood are both delicious.

4. From a biological perspective, I believe human beings are unanimously classified as omnivores, just like bears. It may be true that the U.S. diet contains too much meat, and that this results in poor health. However, this is not to say that vegetarianism or vegan-ism is necessarily a better choice. For example, a friend of mine (vegetarian) found themselves anemic due to iron deficiency- as a result of diet. My father has high blood pressure, and high cholesterol- also as a result of diet. Again: the issue is not a nice fatty steak, but rather, the proportion of fatty meats, or other iron-rich foods, to the diet as a whole.

[Mark]

As other people have said - we are designed to eat both meat and vegetables. A million or so years ago, humans didn't have much choice on what to eat - you ate whatever you could. Because meat provides more energy than vegetables, and because it wasn't very common or easy to get, the process of natural selection made meat desirable to us.

As Sam Neil, the Australian actor from Jurassic park, says in his infomercials - We were meant to eat it.

As for the ethical implications - as long as it's done painlessly, I don't have a problem with eating animals. It's not as if cows or pigs have very interesting lives after all. Chickens don't possess any great intellect either. Of course they can feel pain, almost all organisms can feel pain, but honestly, can a chicken feel joy, sadness, hope or despair? I doubt it. Can a cow create poems or think about philosophical matters? I doubt it. They have short lives anyway. As long as it's done painlessly (with cows, they just use a cattle gun which kills them instantly by destroying the brain) I don't have a problem with it. And as long as it's sustainable. Of course, we should probably stop eating cows as it's not good for the environment to breed them, so I just eat chicken these days.

Chickens can feel pain, sure. But honestly, they are not the same as us. I doubt they have any complex emotions, cares or worries or dreams or ambitions. They're just chickens.

[SuperBK]

If we aren't natural meat eaters, then why all the attempt to make vegetable matter look like meet. There are tofu dogs, veggie chickent nuggests, fake meat loaf, veggie meatballs (which are quite good by the way). While there is nothing I like more than a nice plate of vegetables, some of the meat imitations aren't very good.
Brian

[just_me]

You make some pretty good points.
I do eat meat, but I find raw meat completely gross.
I could never actually do the cooking, because I usually end up wanting to puke after handling raw meat.
Yet once its cooked, I just love meat.
Anyway, I just wanted to leave a comment telling you that you made some good points. =)

[GrayKat]

Asok has it over most of you salivating carnivores! Many Indians (the Asian ones) are vegetarians and have raised vegetarian cooking to a salubrious art. They drop dead from many reasons, but lack of dietary protein is not one of them. The secret lies in eating the right combination of vegetables. They had eons to experiment with the native flora and more than a few probably died before they found the right mix. But they must be eating the right nix now or they wouldn't have a growing overpopulation problem.

That said, I am a certified omnivore. I prefer my food locally raised and un-messed with: no clones, drugs, hormones, or whatever else those massive agroconglomerates use to "increase yield" (translation: fill the CEO's pockets).

As for salivating over anything, it's all a matter of perspective. Who first decided that a prickly raw artichoke might be good to eat? Ditto for oysters, clams, rhubarb, potatoes, and mushrooms. Who ate the first jalapeno.

How about a nice salad of ivy leaves, pokeweed, oxalis, henbane and oleander. Or a "trail mix" of castor beans, kidney beans, rye seeds, holly berries, and green may apples. Many early veggie gatherers probably met an unpleasant end; their survivors figured eating raw meat wasn't really all that bad.

Americans are notorious for calling a 48 oz steak with a 42 oz potato (oozing with butter, sour cream, bacon bits, cheese, and salt) a "healthy meal" - and it is ... for SIX people! The bottom line, it would seem, is moderation.

As an aside, claims that the use of land & grain to feed those Meals on Feet is wasteful may be wrong. A recent Cornell study found that vegetarian diets require cultivation (plus water, fertilizer, labor, fuel) of more land than diets with a bit of meat! That extra bit of protein feeds more mouths on less land than a vegetarian diet! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071008130203.htm

Go fig!

[Carl]

I don't think natural is quite the right word. I think survival is more accurate. We ate meat because, at one point that was what we new. It was hunting and gathering that started us living in cities and starting trade routs. Now it is just something we have done for 1000's of years, why stop a good thing, it works.

BTW: I am not a huge fan of the idea of eating animals, but I do it, so, no, I don't want to see them in their cute, alive aspect of their life.

[C-H]

Salivation is a learned response. Ask Pavlov. His dogs didn't think bells were food. People, the meat eaters anyway, have been conditioned to salivate at the sight of a steak.

As far at the eating lots of meat shouldn't cause a health problem, if you eat or drink most things to excess they are bad for you. Take vitamin B6. In the right doses, its fine, even beneficial. Take too much and you can get nerve damage in your arms and legs.

Sorry Adams, I don't think your reasoning is valid. Then again, I could always bring up the point that if all you do is eat vegetables, no supplements, you will experience some health issues and therefore, you are meant to eat meat.

I think I might send Scott a box full of steaks.

C-H

[Thomas C]

Oh yes, and eating vegetables generates health risks, too. It is not infrequent to see a story about canned this or juice that containing some bacteria which hospitalizes or even kills people these days.

So, I guess by your two postulates, wherein the first is modified to this situation, we can also rule out that human beings are not natural vegetable eaters.

[Thomas C]

I largely fail to see the connection between your two propositions that must hold true and the question of whether or not we are natural meat eaters.

The second one, in particular, is like saying because a lion doesn't always stalk nearby prey, it is not a meat eater. There are times where the lion will not stalk prey.

I see the issue of processing the meat has already been covered.

But, a better analogy: show me a steak, and I'll salivate.

Don't try disproving that humans are natural meat eaters by showing them a cow.

[adora]

Because the beef(food) is still wrapped in suede(not food) when you see the cow.

It is only a western thing to disguise the food. (Comes in handy with Soylent Green.) In authentic Chinese cuisine, fish heads, shrimp heads, chicken heads & feet etc... are left on the plate. Cow head is too big for the plate and traditionally Chinese don't eat beef. (Cows were ancient lawn mowers, not food.) Pigs are roasted in whole. Peruvians too serve the roast pig in whole. When you eat fresh Japanese sashimi, the fish is still twitching and looking at you.

Vegetables are also in disguised in the west. Why are they blended with fruits in juices or smoothies? I despise V8-like substances!

[pender]

Seeing a cow probably made our ancestors drool. Even though we know what where steak comes from, we are bit seperated from the "kill" to recognize what a steak is before it's "processed."

As far the health risks of red meat, many things you consume will do harm or even kill you if you have to much.

People have died from water poisoning.

[theives44]

In Thailand, when my wife and I tied the knot, I killed a pig so my new brothers in law could bbq it for a party. It was brutal - took two swings of the club - and a machete in the neck before I was certain it was dead. The pig was squeeling through the whole ordeal. I felt very odd afterwards. I had no idea when I woke up that morning that I would kill a pig that day. I was a little confused when my brothers handed me the club and pointed at the squeeling burlap sack... We bbq't it and 20 or so people ate bits of it - and it tasted very good. But to this day, whenever I eat pork, I think about that squeeling pig. Now, I often think that if a person wants to eat meat they should be required to be present at the killing of the animal, and sometimes be the killer. Otherwise - we are just cowards afraid to face the ugliness of what we do to survive. Unfortunately - I do not salivate when I see veggies or fruit...

[BC]

Am I wrong?

Yes.

[Tickleddragon]

My favorite bumpersticker:

"I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat just vegetables."

We're omnivores, not simply carnivores.

[Don]

OK different strokes for different folks...what is the big deal?

So long as you are not using the government to impose your veiws on me...I really don't care.

I for one like my vegies served with my steak, ribs stew ham fish.....

You can call me open minded.

[L Nettles]

Is it possible to be healthy on a pure vegetable and fruit diet, no milk no eggs?

Nope

Conclusion?

http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/vitamin_b12_deficiency.htm
Vegans (people who don’t eat any meat, dairy, or eggs) are most at risk for developing a B12 deficiency because, aside from fortified breakfast cereals, the only reliable dietary sources of vitamin B12 are animal-derived products. But even vegetarians who eat eggs and dairy products consume, on average, less than half the adult Recommended Dietary Allowance of 2.4 mcg of B12, notes the Health Letter.

[glenn]

PETA=
People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

[TiamoInfidels]

Is it not obvious by now we are Omnivores? Truly not hard to prove when there are NO naturally occurring vegetarian human societies on the planet. That is a choice, and a choice that has yet to be proven as healthy as well. Anyone with vegan friends can relate to a story told by Ron White… His friend is a vegan who gets sick on broth because there was beef in it. His response... Really? Your system is kicking back... BROTH? OHHH you are a manly man!
LOL

[Kelly]

"If it were at all enforceable it'd be excellent to force people to get licensed to be able to eat meat - you want steak, kill this cow to get your license, etc."

I'm sorry, but this is completely nonsense as many others have already stated. We have roles in our society, and we don't require that everyone do everything in order to participate in everything.

By your logic, those who support abortion rights must first perform an abortion before they can have one of their own.

If I had to, I probably could kill a cow and eat its meat raw, but why would I otherwise? Eating cooked meat is as much a luxury as providing resources that allow vegetarians to survive.

[Frizzbee]

It's no wonder 'creative' vegetarians didn't start to flourish until these past few years. In the past, most societies let the dolts starve to death.

[Mike]

I live in the midwest so I see cows often, in addtion to chickens, lambs, etc. When I see these animals it does get me thinking of dinner and how I prepare each cut of meat. (by the way, anyone putting bbq sauce on a steak should not be eating a steak!!) I'm not thinking of going and taking about right out of rump of a pig b/c I want ribs but I might head on out to my favorite rib establishment and get some of the meaty goodness that I crave. When I see a truck hauling cows on the interstae I do begin to crave a nice juicy steak cooked RARE

[Ellendra]

I have a question: If people are so obviously different on the outside, why is there this knee-jerk assumption that we're all perfectly identical on the inside?

Scott, you have mentioned that you get sick if you eat meat. I get sick if I don't eat meat. I tried going vegetarian for 3 months. After 2 weeks my energy level had plummeted and I was constantly ill, but I bought into the mantra that all the veggie-diet advocates were feeding me, that it was just my body "adapting". I almost died before finally getting it through my skull that the dietitians were wrong, I am a carnivore. By the end of that 3 months I was so weak I could barely move enough to crawl from the couch to the bathroom.

I've since done more research on the subject. I've found that humanity is more of a spectrum than a species, with some rather dramatic differences between people, that have nothing to do with outside appearances.

And yes, I do salivate looking at a cow or a deer. But then, having butchered my own meat before, I'm a bit closer to my food than the average urbanite.

[john flower]

The answer is simple,does anybody like to wash his ass? but we wash! because it's hygienic,that's why we eat cow's meat,not because it's most pleasant thing in the world but it's hopefully good for our body.

[Scott from Canada]

Actually one of my biggest fantasies is to kill a zebra and eat it while it's still warm.

[trickykid]

Quote: "1) If we're meant to eat only vegetables, can we do that and be healthy?"

Millions do it daily. They're called vegetarians and it's proven their life expectancy is longer than one with a mostly meat consumed diet. I can't remember where I picked up this fact but to my knowledge it's true: "Spinach grown on an acre of land can yield 26 times more protein than beef produced on the same acre."

People mostly claim they eat meat for protein and iron in their diets. What most meat eaters don't know is that there are plenty of alternatives that don't include the word "steak" or "burger" in the name of the meal.

A few more facts:

Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons; Water needed to produce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons.
15 million pounds of antibiotics are used in animal production every year- These drugs end up in your milk and meat.
Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed one person consuming a meat-based diet: 20.
60 million people will starve to death this year – 60 million people could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 percent.
Number of Human beings who could be fed by the grain and soybeans eaten by U. S. livestock: 1,300,000,000.
Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate meat-centred diet: 13 years; Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate vegetarian diet: 260 years.
By reducing your consumption of meat,, dairy products and eggs by 50%, you reduce your risk of a heart attack by 45%. By following a pure vegetarian diet (no animal products at all) you reduce your risk by 90%.

I don't eat meat for a lot of reasons. I educate myself in what I'm eating. I don't expect the manufacturer or food packager cares as much as I do, they're out to make a buck, I'm out to live a long healthy life. Probably the main reasons though is environment and diseases that animals carry. Educate yourself and eat what you desire by such knowledge, not because it's served at some restaurant or drive through window.

And no, I'm not a PETA member, those people are crazy!

[Drew]

Quote: "1) If we're meant to eat only vegetables, can we do that and be healthy?"

Millions do it daily. They're called vegetarians and it's proven their life expectancy is longer than one with a mostly meat consumed diet. I can't remember where I picked up this fact but to my knowledge it's true: "Spinach grown on an acre of land can yield 26 times more protein than beef produced on the same acre."

People mostly claim they eat meat for protein and iron in their diets. What most meat eaters don't know is that there are plenty of alternatives that don't include the word "steak" or "burger" in the name of the meal.

A few more facts:

Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons; Water needed to produce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons.
15 million pounds of antibiotics are used in animal production every year- These drugs end up in your milk and meat.
Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed one person consuming a meat-based diet: 20.
60 million people will starve to death this year – 60 million people could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 percent.
Number of Human beings who could be fed by the grain and soybeans eaten by U. S. livestock: 1,300,000,000.
Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate meat-centred diet: 13 years; Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate vegetarian diet: 260 years.
By reducing your consumption of meat,, dairy products and eggs by 50%, you reduce your risk of a heart attack by 45%. By following a pure vegetarian diet (no animal products at all) you reduce your risk by 90%.

I don't eat meat for a lot of reasons. I educate myself in what I'm eating. I don't expect the manufacturer cares as much as I do, they're out to make a buck, I'm out to live a long healthy life. Probably the main reasons is environment and diseases that animals carry. Educate yourself and eat what you desire by such knowledge, not because it's served at some restaurant or drive through window.

And no, I'm not a PETA member, those people are crazy!

[Drew]

Quote: "1) If we're meant to eat only vegetables, can we do that and be healthy?"

Millions do it daily. They're called vegetarians and it's proven their life expectancy is longer than one with a mostly meat consumed diet. I can't remember where I picked up this fact but to my knowledge it's true: "Spinach grown on an acre of land can yield 26 times more protein than beef produced on the same acre."

People mostly claim they eat meat for protein and iron in their diets. What most meat eaters don't know is that there are plenty of alternatives that don't include the word "steak" or "burger" in the name of the meal.

A few more facts:

Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons; Water needed to produce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons.
15 million pounds of antibiotics are used in animal production every year- These drugs end up in your milk and meat.
Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed one person consuming a meat-based diet: 20.
60 million people will starve to death this year – 60 million people could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 percent.
Number of Human beings who could be fed by the grain and soybeans eaten by U. S. livestock: 1,300,000,000.
Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate meat-centred diet: 13 years; Length of time world’s petroleum reserves would last if all human beings ate vegetarian diet: 260 years.
By reducing your consumption of meat,, dairy products and eggs by 50%, you reduce your risk of a heart attack by 45%. By following a pure vegetarian diet (no animal products at all) you reduce your risk by 90%.

I don't eat meat for a lot of reasons. I educate myself in what I'm eating. I don't expect the manufacturer cares as much as I do, they're out to make a buck, I'm out to live a long healthy life. Probably the main reasons is environment and diseases that animals carry. Educate yourself and eat what you desire by such knowledge, not because it's served at some restaurant or drive through window.

And no, I'm not a PETA member, those people are crazy!

[RedneckInNY]

Humans are omnivores. We're also hunter/gatherers, hence our evolution into omnivores. The meat you eat that you get from the grocery store can give you health problems because:

1) Beef is filled with growth hormones, steroids, antibiotics, etc. - things not naturally found in meats like venison, elk, moose, aka wild game.

2) Beef is high in fat due to lack of exercise. The worst beef you could eat in large amounts is Kobe beef (not that you would anyway, since it's so damned expensive). Wild game is also a lot leaner and healthier than store-bought beef.

Ounce-for-ounce, store-bought chicken is higher in cholesterol than lobster.

Fish is brain food. Omega-3 fatty acids is the key building block to brain cells, which is 70% fatty acids.

I don't see where the argument that we're meant to be vegetarians comes from, since we lack the digestive enzymes and processes to break down cellulose. And how would you explain the canine teeth all carnivores share, including humans? Personally, I salivate when I see a cow, because I know what cuts of meat are where, as I also hunt and know how to butcher a deer. I also eat my (red) meats on the rare side, so that reduces the risk of carcinogenic compounds in meat when they are cooked too long. I've salivated to fruits, vegetables and insects too.

Here's a truism for you: in order for one thing to live, something else has to die (whether it be animal for vegetable).

And it's been discovered that plants and trees can communicate with each other, so either way you slice it, you're killing a something in order for you to live.

[Roy]

I think the arguments are stupid. I dont eat meat as a rule. But I live among meat eaters and when I have no choice I eat meat too. But as a rule of preference I dont eat meat. I think that is an argument I like that. I dont like meat. I dont eat meat because I dont like it. You might like it or not like it . It is upto you. I also believe that higher the organization of life the greater the capacity to feel pain. All living things die. But a carrot dug up from the ground to be cooked and eaten has less pain than a cow being led to slaughter which has less pain than a human being on a death row about to be hanged in an hour. I am sure that each feels the pain, but somehow the pain is more the higher the organism is in terms of mental faculties. But we are interdependent on each other. So long as we dont have the ability to develop energy from chlorophyll we have to eat something. But I like the philosophy that gain ur nutrition by causing least harm as far as possible

[igc]

You're vegetarian... so when you see a tree and you're hungry, you go for it and bite it?
This sentence -> "Seeing a cow would make you salivate if you were hungry" doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand, meat conteins most proteins that the recommended regular diet includes. You can get those proteins from other meals, but you would be fighting your own nature, because your body has been designed to eat from different sources.

I want to point out some other thoughts:
1-Eating meat doesn't make people sick, at least normal people (not sick or paranoid guys)
2-Some people don't like eating meat because it involves killing animals, but they don't realize that eating any thing and dressing with any clothes, involves the death of living beings such as plants or fish and sometimes even slaved children involved in their manufacture.

IMO being vegetarian for any of the purposes mentioned above is plainly and completely stupid.

[Rick Gutbrod]

I know that you have small regard for the Bible, but just a thought from the Genesis account that supports your contention that humans are not "natural" meat eaters. It was after the Flood that God gave mankind a diet change:
9 And God went on to bless Noah and his sons and to say to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth. 2 And a fear of YOU and a terror of YOU will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that goes moving on the ground, and upon all the fishes of the sea. Into YOUR hand they are now given. 3 Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. 4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man. 6 Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man. 7 And as for YOU men, be fruitful and become many, make the earth swarm with YOU and become many in it.”

So, you are right in the fact humans weren't designed for meat eating.

[Ryan]

I salivate when I see a cow, and other tasty animals all the time. Just kill it and through it on a plate, thats all I need. That being said, I wish I could be a veggiterian sometimes because of the health benifits but I just can not stand to eat anything that is green...

[latsot]

> 1. Eating lots of meat wouldn’t increase your health risks.

Not necessarily. Natural selection doesn't work for the 'good' of a species. It would be more accurate to say "eating lots of meat wouldn't increase your health risks to the extent that it adversely affected reproduction". I don't know whether there is any reason to suspect that this is the case.

But even that is inaccurate. It would be better still to say something like "genes that tend to predispose people to eat large quantities of meat should be widespread in the gene pool." This does seem to be the case, for a given value of 'large'.

> 2. Seeing a cow would make you salivate if you were
> hungry.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning. We (or at least I) certainly salivate when i see or smell cooked meat. I sometimes salivate when I see raw meat as well. This doesn't mean I want to eat the raw meat, I'm imagining it cooked and salivating at that image. We don't see cows solely as food. We also have some anthropomorphic feelings towards them, probably for evolutionary reasons. This might act against our salivating when we look at one. Cooked meat has properties that raw meat doesn't. For example, caramelised meat is nicer than non-caramelised meat. It is sweeter-tasting, for one thing. We have evolved to like sweet things, so why wouldn't we prefer our meat cooked? Cooked meat is also easier to eat and is less likely to contain harmful bacteria. Wouldn't people who were genetically disposed to prefer cooked meat be more likely to pass those genes onto future generations?

There is also surely a non-genetic component: genes only instill tendencies: being brought up to cook our food and show revulsion at raw meat might be cultural. But where do you think culture comes from? It certainly has some genetic basis.

It is natural for us to eat some meat, for any definition of 'natural' I can bring myself to find reasonable. In general, we have both the equipment and desire for it and in our evolutionary environment, in conjunction with our other lifestyle habits and diet, it quite obviously did not pose enough of a health risk that everyone died without reproducing. The benefits of the protein and fat presumably outweighed those problems anyway. This doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good idea to eat huge quantities of meat given our current typical lifestyle, though.

[Mohammad]

That was soo wrong a comparison. I am used to cooked food. Had i eaten raw cows that would make my mouth water. Had I eaten you, you would make my mouth water. it's just the case of habituality...

[Miketheveggie]

How interesting that most of the huge number of comments on this topic, are from meat eaters vigorously defending their choice (often in an ill-informed and humorous manner.)
"If man wasn't designed to eat meat how come we invented spears" lol

I will stick to my diet - you guys stick to yours and lets agree to differ where necessary.

[Joey]

If salivation itself is such a profound indicator of what we should or shouldn't eat, then what does whether or not something is raw have to do with it? I salivate when I see delicious onion rings, a juicy orange, or a juicy steak. If salivation is the key, then doesn't that mean that I'm "naturally" intended to eat steaks, onion rings, and oranges?

I guess your point is that something is only "natural" to eat if we salivate when it is in it's "natural" form, but since we salivate at all kinds of things, that just means salivation is a really unreliable indicator.

[Boris]

Well, I'm not going to read all the other comments, so these points have probably been anticipated, but . . .

I have eaten raw beef, "steak tartare", but it is marinated in something, so perhaps that doesn't count. Many cultures have eaten some meats and fishes raw, insects too, I believe. Cooking most meats makes them more tender, and may improve the flavor, as well as killing bacteria. Some vegetables are better cooked also (potatoes, eggplant, in my opinion) or are good in a different way (squash). At least one vegetable, cassava, needs to be cooked to remove traces of poison, after which it is nutritious. So what was your point?

Moderation is always something to remember. What do you mean by "lots of meat"? Is it possible that a moderate amount of meat is good for you? Do you have reason to believe that this is not true? Would it be possible, in your opinion, to overdose on certain plants?

I have no interest in persuading vegetarians to eat critters, not will I try to prove anything about the health benefits of a mixed diet. It seems to me, though, that most of the vegetarians who cite health concerns, are picking an choosing their data to prove the conclusion they want, the same speculation that you've made against meat eaters in the past. It's possible that we actually don't know the ultimate truth about this. I'd just consider the fact that we've evolved as omnivores to be suggestive.

Of course, you've also pointed out in the past that you have digestive problems which make it hard for you to eat meat. That's an excellent reason for you personally to be a vegetarian, but not everyone is in the same boat.

[the_brett]

Despite the "evolution controversy," you really have to look at this from a time frame of around 10,000 years ago. It is likely that the site of a deer or rabbit would have actually made our decendants salivate. Once we figured out that meat tastes better cooked, we've learned to salivate when we see prepared meat instead of the original version.

[Xyfbzi]

Trees don't make you salivate, the apples that grow on them do. As with a cow not making you salivate, but a steak inside it does.
Grain does not make you salivate. But grain is good.
I have looked at a cow and salivated (or just thought, "mmm cow") before. I was fairly hungry at the time, though not starving.

[Andy Coulter]

the paleolithic diet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic-style_diet

[Scott]

"I always get a little upset because it seems that they completely lack the courage of their convictions... if you're going to eat steak you should be willing to kill a cow - not to have to do it every time, but just be able to

If it were at all enforceable it'd be excellent to force people to get licensed to be able to eat meat - you want steak, kill this cow to get your license, etc. "

Nice, do you use wood, you should go cut down all of your trees... any leather on your shoes, car seats, anything? You should have to kill a cow and tan the hide... oh yeah, ever touched a football? You should have to kill a pig... that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

[Scott]

Do you salivate when you see a tree?

Dude, you're a vegetarian, that's great, we're happy that you believe it's obviously the best lifestyle that anyone could ever have... Quit trying to prove it, makes you look very insecure...

[Steven Brandt]

My theory is that humans started out as egg eaters. Since eggs are the gold standard of protein, having all the essential amino acids we need in the right amounts and in an easily digestible form this seems logical.

However, eggs might not always have been available to primitive humans -- so with some (possibly minor) improvements to teeth a tool-using vegetarian / egg-eater might easily evolve to add meat to the diet.

[flabaya]

Eating lots of veggies and being vegitarian also has it's health risks....

we are even.

[Allen Anderson]

I'd like to say that humans are omnivorous. We naturally eat both meat and plants. We are natural meat and plant eaters.

Of course we could eat our meat without cooking/ cutting it. If we weren't able to cook or cut our meat, I'm sure that's how we'd eat it. It's just that cutting our meat into nice, small pieces not only has more aesthetic appeal than a dead cow, but it is also easier to cook. And cooking a steak, and then dousing it with steak sauce makes it taste a great deal better. It's like wheat. We, of course can eat wheat right off the stalk, but it tastes a great deal better to grind it up into flower, add a few other ingredients, and turn it into bread, crackers, cereal, etc.

Scott, you have probably never been hungry enough to salivate when looking at a cow, or a field of wheat, or even an apple tree. But I'm sure the residents of an impoverished, third world country would at such sights.

[Quaid]

I would say that the reason we don't salivate when we see a cow is... we're not animals. That is, our eating -- even our hungering -- is not the same as that of an animal. There is something special -- dare I say 'exalted'? -- about being human. We don't live like animals, we don't love like animals, we don't eat like them. And when we do begin to do such things like an animal does, it's a sign that we are losing our humanity. As far as the eating part goes, Leon Kass has a good book on the dignity of human eating in his book "The Hungry Soul."

[Bill B]

We are naturally omnivores. Any vegan should be able to tell you that getting a balanced diet with all the nutrients you need is difficult. I doubt that many could have been healthy without eating meat before communication, education and a thorough understanding of nutrition. Any survivalist will tell you that unless you know your plants very well, DON'T EAT PLANTS. Too many of then are poisonous. While I don't see myself eating bugs and worms, they are good food and generally safe to eat even if you have no idea what they are.

There are many animals that can't eat plants and many that can't eat meat. The fact that we can eat both and be healthy says that we are evolved to do that.

As for the claim that we are only built to last 40 years, I can't accept that. The evidence is that we are built to last around 70-75 years, but until recently, lifespan had little to do with design. It took incredible luck to live 70 years, but a few managed it. Mostly, you died young from disease or accidents.

That isn't to say that there isn't a price for eating some meats. While in youth, we can be spectacularly healthy eating a meat-rich diet, it increases the tendency for a lot of problems later in life. Fish actually seems to improve health later in life, and I can't see that fish isn't meat.

Most animals can outrun us long enough to escape and the longest range weapon primitive man probably had was the spear, so I suspect that meat was an irregular part of the diet. I remember reading somewhere that in primitive hunter-gatherer societies, the gatherers supply more than half of the food, so our "natural" diet is likely heavy on fruits, nuts and vegetables with occasional large amounts of meat. Remember, there was no way to preserve perishable items, so meats and the like had to be consumed soon after it was taken.

[Ned]

Scott

You forget that - for almost as long as we've been eating meat - we've been cooking food. Cooking makes meat more tender (if done right) and therefore easier to chew and digest. Some meat is tender enough on-the-hoof, but some is tough and stringy without thorough cooking.

Cooking also gets rid of parasites and bacterial - just as washing gets rid of yuck-o stuff on veggies. Sure, you can eat veggies raw in the field, but you'll also be eating bug poop and bird droppings (aka poop) and cattle urine and ... well, you get the idea.

Sure, the Japanese eat sushi (and sometimes die horrible deaths) and eskimos let their meat-food rot to digestible softness before eating it raw ... but I have no desire to be either a Japanese sushi eater nor a rotten-meat eskimo. I presume you feel roughly the same.

As for health - meat has long-term health risks; but since we evolved to live about 40 years, and since people beyond the age of reproduction tend to deteriorate no matter what they eat, clearly, evolutionary forces (or intelligent design) didn't give a sushi's ass over the long-term impact of eating meat. It's enough that the meat protein gave the eaters more energy and power. Throughout history, meat-eating nomads had a relatively easy time beating the pure cane crap out of the sedentary farmers - and not because farmers were hayseeds. It's that grain - while life-sustaining - isn't the power/energy food that protein is. Check it out, historically.

I'm talking Mesopotamia, the fertile crescent, the steppes - ancient times, when the dividing line was clear. Check it out, Scott. Then go eat your liver ...

Ned

[Neil Mix]

Pavlovian response is conditioned. If we meat eaters killed and processed our own meat just prior to eating it on a regular basis, we'd probably salivate at the sight of cows. Since we don't do the processing ourselves, there's no associate between the live cow and hunger satisfaction.

As for the health risks, yes meat poses more long-term health risks than vegetables. Prehistoric man didn't live long enough to suffer from them, thus our bodies wouldn't have adapted to deal with such risks.

[Jenni]

What about your cat? Please tell me that you don't have your cat on a not meat diet!!!

[Splint Chesthair]

I've tried the Warrior Diet and intermittent fasting where you basically eat the supposed way our ancestors did and how our biology evoloved. That is, you go through periods of eating very little and then feast once your hunting has produced a big meal. That's the theory anyway.

I had gone 24 hours without eating while trying this out and I once salivated over a squirrel. I imagined catching it and cooking it up on a campfire and then chowing down. He was one of the those fat park squirrels too, no predators, eating cheese curls and peanuts the park patrons leave them.

Perhaps it's just a matter of being innundated with food that quells our natural meat eating urge.

[Manda]

There's one point that I don't think anyone has raised yet.

Human beings only exist in their current form BECAUSE our ancestors began eating meat. The increase in protein in their diets allowed for larger brain growth, which led us down an entirely different evolutionary path.

[Pat]

Every year out local grocery store buys the cow that wins first place in the County Fair, slaughters it, and sells it for an exorbitant price right next to the picture of the cow and the blue ribbon. Seriously. They do. It gets bought up quickly.

For some people, there must be some sort of relationship between the aestetics of a cow and the taste of a cow. Why else would they have the judging, etc.

OTOH, someone might say that a cow LOOKS nice or pretty or healthy. But I have never heard anyone say a cow looked delicious. BTW, I've never heard anyone say a steak tasted pretty, either. Hmmmmmm.

[Bob]

Some of the vegan/vegetarian comments are just so out of touch with reality. Before foisting your views on the rest of us, how about thinking first. For example, I love the comment about getting a license to eat meat and lacking courage of convictions. I'm sure that individual rides around on a solar-powered buggy made entirely of hemp. We have evolved from omnivores. It's the most effective approach to obtaining the nourishment needed to survive. Glad you made the choice to go against your genetic imperative. Don't hurt yourself patting your own back. As for killing things ourselves, eating raw meat, and the rest of the hare-brained comments, what makes you think we wouldn't if we had to? We live in a society that provides cooked, farm-raised meat to us at less marginal cost than doing it ourselves. Our modern predilection for avoiding disease through hygiene and the application of biological science has likely made us more vulnerable to salmonella, etc., hence the need for cooking (although I'd love if you could enlighten me on what one of the first applications of fire would have been...I'll give you one guess). When you're 80 or 85 years old, ask yourself how living in such a society worked out for you.

[Shawn]

Scott,

You can eat a banana straight off a banana tree. Salivating near a banana tree is natural.

You can be near a cow but still be wishing for a steak. There's preparatory work involved for steak. Technology is required, including weapons, knives, fire. Your life may be at risk from horns, hooves. That's no time to be wasting energy salivating.

Now, roast a shish kabob over an open fire and I'll salivate. My ancestors have been doing that for around 1 to 2 million years, depending on who you ask. One of my favorite smells is ground beef frying in a pan.

Do I feel sorry for animals? Sometimes, but not so much if they are treated humanely. (Animals die only once, humans included.) Do I respect vegetarians? Yes, but I think vegetarianism is unimportant for most people. Human beings evolved to eat a mixed diet of fruits, vegetables, and meat.

Shawn

[DivRathore]

What baffles me is the number of people who claim that one cannot get required nutrition from vegetarian meals. i come from a country where a large number of people are vegetarians. and their ancestors have been vegetarians for generations. trust me, i do not find them malnutritioned from any angle. i believe there is enough protein in vegetables and (especially) pulses.

p.s.- i eat meat, not because i feel its any more nutritious than vegetables, but simply cos i like the taste.

[DivRathore]

What baffles me is the number of people who claim that one cannot get required nutrition from vegetarian meals. i come from a country where a large number of people are vegetarians. and their ancestors have been vegetarians for generations. trust me, i do not find them malnutritioned from any angle. i believe there is enough protein in vegetables and (especially) pulses.

p.s.- i eat meat, not because i feel its any more nutritious than vegetables, but simply cos i like the taste.

[taoist]

I for one do at least salivate when I see certain fish.

[Frog51]

I used to eat no meat, but after working as a butcher for a while I realised that just cutting a bit off a cow or pig or sheep (not still live - that would be weird) and eating it was lovely. I like to be able to recognise the part of an animal I eat - it does make me salivate. Vegetables - definitely not of interest, they just don't do anything for me. Dinner for me can consist of just a chunk of meat - usually cooked, but that is optional for some types (quality Scottish beef for example)
Fish - unnatural (Four legs good, Two legs okay, no legs bad, many legs just wrong so that rules out normal fish and most crustaceans, Yay!)

[Just Me]

When my son was little, he would try to eat any kind of caterpillar, bug or worm he found in the yard. It took me until he was four to teach him not to do that. Mostly I caught him before he ate them, but who knows how many he managed to eat?

[Gofast]

I would argue that seeing a cow doesn't make one salivate because a living, breathing animal is not ready to eat.
A plant does not have to be chased and brought down, thus at any given time a plant is in its ready-to-eat form, triggering your primal eating instincts.

With an animal on the hoof, there remains work to be done, and your primal instincts understand it as such. There is still a strong instinct in humans to chase and bring down a running animal. I would offer the popularity of target shooting, or even sports such as football which involve chasing, as evidence. When I see a pigeon fly or a deer bolt and bound away, I must admit that a part of me wants to chase it.

And yes, a slaughtered side of beef, even in whole form, does make me salivate. Once the game has been brought down, it's time to eat.

[Zorro]

Quick summary. The fallacy in your argument is here;

". But to say we are natural meat-eaters, I would think two things would have to be true:"

"1. Eating lots of meat wouldn’t increase your health risks."

You don't say "But to say we are natural eaters of LOTS OF meat" but then say "Eating LOTS OF meat increases your health risk".

We are natural meat eaters. We eat too much meat these days. These facts are not mutually exclusive. But, being a writer I expect you know this! ;D

We are naturally (evolved) to be able to eat what the hell we find which is available. If we hadn't evolved to be able to eat meat then I doubt there would be 6 billion people on the planet now!!

Zorro.

[Zorro]

Sorry Scott, our bodies are evolved to be able to eat meat (In terms of teeth, and digestive tract, note we do not have as many stomachs as a cow!), therefore we are supposed to eat (some) meat. Not to the exclusion of anything else for sure.

Pavlovs dogs salivated to the /sound of a bell/ - because of association, we associate the smell of a steak with the imminent taste of a steak and so salivate. We do not associate the smell of a cow with the taste of a steak, so we do not salivate when we see a cow. If we regularly slaughtered our own cows, chopped them into steaks, cooked one and ate it then yes we WOULD salivate over a cow. (As I'm pretty much positive you are very well aware!!)

I don't have any problem with you eating only veg/pulses if thats what you want to do. But please don't tell me what I can and cannot eat, and don't suggest that because I eat an occasional animal that I'm any less of an animal lover than you! ;)

Are you positive plants don't mind you eating them?

I totally agree with a lot of other commenters that meat eaters should at least once, kill something and eat it.

Z.

[Mort]

Comparing our teeth and digestive system with animals, I think humans "are designed" (or evolved) to eat mostly plants (vegetables, fruits, grain) and easy to reach proteines (insects, worms, eggs, ...).
Now, we're quite unused to eat insects and the like, with the exceptions of the occational "captured" fly or spider while sleeping or biking and seafood, probably mostly because it's more easy to kill a single cow (that also spend lots of milk while it grew up) than capture, kill and peel thousands of grashoppers. (Disgust is mostly educational - in some countries people have no problem with eating e.g. grashoppers...)
I think it would be more ethical to eat animals without pain sensors and probably not much other feelings than intelligent mammals like pigs. But I have to admit I wouldn't all to happily try a grashopper steak (just knowing it's stupid doesn't stop old habits and prejustices)...

[Mr. Wampus]

I'll add to the long list of things humans do that aren't "natural:"
Fly
Drive cars
Ride bicycles
Read
Write
Act out stories
Watch TV/Movies
Perform rituals
Religion (although we don't actually know for certain that other species don't also have some form of religion. For all we know, a Praying Mantis might actually be praying!)

That's all I can think of right off the top of my head.

[RK]

SCOTT,
I am a veggie. Simple differentiator between veggies and non-veggies.
To borrow a quote from orwell's pig farm...

two legs/Four legs bad.....no legs good.

[jim]

I think this is an interesting psychological experiment. You relate raw fruits and vegetables to food because that is the way it is normally presented to you. I do not relate a cow to food because that is not the way it is normally presented to me. So, while I don't salivate over a cow, I do salivate to an embarrassing amount when I see a steak. Maybe its a fine line, but I think its important.

Also, I know a million people have said it here, but humans are omnivores, not carnivores. That, too, is very important in this discussion. I am not a health nut, so I don't study this crap, but I do believe humans need protein to live and the most readily available source for protein is meat.

[bubba]

Human endurance running performance capabilities compare favourably with those of other mammals and probably emerged sometime around 2 million years ago in order to help meat-eating hominids compete with other carnivores.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17465590?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

We argue that this dietary shift to increased regular consumption of fatty animal tissues in the course of hominid evolution was mediated by selection for "meat-adaptive" genes. This selection conferred resistance to disease risks associated with meat eating also increased life expectancy

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15101252?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The critical role played by animal source foods in human (Homo) evolution

Without routine access to ASF (animal source foods), it is highly unlikely that evolving humans could have achieved their unusually large and complex brain while simultaneously continuing their evolutionary trajectory as large, active and highly social primates.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14672286?ordinalpos=10&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Paul W]

The Pavlov example is a good one here; we never butcher cows ourselves so we don't naturally associate it food. The way we are used to seeing it, in steak form, does pique our interest.

And I've thought about the same question you pose as far as if we are natural meat eaters many times. The problem is that none of the meats we eat, except fish, are still in the same form as when we were still evolving. No animal that has as much fat as a cow would have survived very long without protection.

We could have someone eat a 50% (since we are omnivores) deer meat and fish diet and see how they fare. My guess is, not so poorly.

[bubba]

We are omnivores. We are designed to eat some meat. We are not designed to eat *only* meat.

Cooking meat releases additional nutrients.

Chimpanzees hunt and eat monkeys.

[Diana W]

Without reading the other 500 comments, I have a couple I'd like to add. First, there are very few locations on earth that naturally produce an abundance of fruits and vegetables year round. So before refrigerators and freighters delivering produce from other continents, people would have most likely starved if they didn't rely on meat during the off seasons. If I was a cave woman in Africa and was being wooed by one cave man who brought me an antilope in the middle of the summer draught, and then had another vegetariean cave man who promised me a nice bunch of bananas in 3 or 4 months, well, the vegetarian just ain't getting any nookie.

Regarding cooking meat, many cultures don't. But going back to the cave men, they were most likely to catch the sick animals, and eventually learned that cooking made it less likely the meat would be harmful to themselves. Just like they also realized that it was easiest to get the fruit on the ground, but that washing it was a wise mose.

[hantu]

i get hungry/salivate when i look at lions/predators in general on documentaries eat.
seriously.
so yes, i do believe we were meant to be meat-eaters.
we shouldnt rule out the possibility that we're simply too used to cooked food, which naturally, tastes better.
like how i would prefer cooked vegatables over non-cooked ones. for me anyway.
but fruits taste nice either way so it doesnt really matter.

[terry k]

We are what we are. What the hell is natural anyway?

I personally on the side of less meat in my diet (not quite total vegan yet) but the "natural" argument one way or the other makes no sense to me.

[DF]

When our ancestors had to hunt for their own food, it wasn't the slow moving, docile cow that they went after. It was something fast moving, so the meat would be lean, and something that could attack them if provoked, so the hunters had to stay fit too.

The instinct that you would feel seeing a potential meal in a field would be to salivate, but more for the hunt. I'm guessing that you don't have to sneak up on and pounce on your pepper plants to subdue them.

And I believe that the point people were trying to make is that some of the vegetables you eat don't make you salivate. Animal's natural state, standing in a field, potato or carrot's natural state, buried in the field. Most vegetables and fruits require just as much preparation as meats before you eat them, with exceptions such as apples or berries. Some need to be dug up, others picked; all of them should be washed, before and after you buy them; most need to be peeled and or sliced before consumption; and quite a few taste better after being cooked.

Again, I am a vote for the balanced meal.

[E]

Scott,

I think I would flip that one on you.

1) If we're meant to eat only vegetables, can we do that and be healthy?
2) Salivation is connected to experience, not natural inclination. Pavlov's dogs salivated because the bell rang - indicating they were going to get something they liked... not because bell sound drooling was bred into their DNA.

On the first, we need protein to be healthy. Most hard core vegetarians I know actually take protein supplements in pill form, even though I think you can get most of the way there through certain legumes, etc...

It seems the easiest way to be healthy is to eat a variety of things in moderation.

On the function of slobber, I would argue that is a response based on experience. Most people would salivate at a well cooked steak if it were presented. Most people probably have NOT tackled a cow and ripped it open for a good meal - so the experience leading to drooling just isn't there.

[Thomas]

Mmmmmmhhh. Dead cow. Aaaaaaaaaaahhhhh

[BobUK]

It is amusing that some of you are using Pavlov to suggest that Scott's point of view is flawed, whereas the Pavlovian response completely supports his idea.

Scott is saying that the modern meat-intensive diet is not natural and not healthy for humans (there is a great deal of scientific data and several thousand years of anecdotal evidence to support this), yet it is our upbringing and social conditioning that makes us think otherwise.

The health-related, social and environmental reasons for reducing meat consumption are well documented. The only reason that it doesn't happen, apart from the vested interests, is that it means most people would have to make a bit more effort to balance their diet. Still, if you prefer laziness to longevity then, by all means, carry on.

Also, I wholeheatedly concur with those who have said that meat eaters should go out and kill their food themselves. The exercise would certainly be good for them. I grow my own vegetables in my garden, so I am sourcing my own food - why can't they?

And lastly (you will be pleased to hear), some of you have put forward unlikely scenarios about vegetarians being stranded with only animals for food available. Most humans are geared for survival and would do things they condider distasteful in order to live. Speaking as a veggie of nearly 30 years standing, I would be prepared to slaughter and eat an animal if there were no other option.

Cut it down before it cuts you down.

[Jack]

It always amuses me when people say they're 'designed' to eat meat..the old 'if monkeys do it, it's OK' argument...we're 'designed' to die by 40 and not wash a whole bunch...don't see people wanting to do that...

[manu]

My room-mate salivates when he sees a fish... dead or alive, on a plate or in an aquarium, dressed in spice or just raw n naked... Can we call him a natural fish eater?

Humans have developed superior brains because of the need to adapt and survive in a seriously animal dominated environment. They have learned to prosper in a very cold/hot/wet and dry world with a sparseness of shelter. Our bodies can absorb a wide variety of organic material for nutrition whereas anim