Youth in Asia

Yesterday I was updating my retirement plan through age 110 and wondered if it was long enough. It seems to me that medical science is progressing so quickly I have a good shot at reaching 140.

This got me thinking. What will happen when medical science can keep almost anyone alive indefinitely, albeit looking like a peach that has been left in the sun for a month? Isn’t it inevitable that assisted suicide will be legal?

There’s no way the global economic system can keep several billion people alive over the age of 100. And if we assume most of those people can vote, and most of them will want at least the option of checking out early, then legalized assisted suicide is a near certainty.

The people over a hundred will want it, and the young people who wish the old people were dead so it would free up resources will want it too. There’s your majority right there.

In the short term, assisted suicide only needs to be legal in one country that has a good airport. Just fly in, let the doctor kill you, and go home in an urn.

Is it inevitable?

Comments

[TallDave]

"There’s no way the global economic system can keep several billion people alive over the age of 100."

Yes there is.

When Social Security was established, most people barely lived long enough to collect it; there were six workers for every retiree. If you'd told people then we'd eventually have three workers for every two retirees, they'd have said that society would collapse long before that.

Cumulative productivity improvement mean we, as a society, can support a lot more leisure than back in those days. The same will be true in the future, only more so.

[Tanya G]

Living to 140 would be good for me. At the rate I'm going, by the time I reach 60 I might be almost ready to start putting money away for retirement.

lostandloster.blogspot.com/

[Adrian]

Why are people in a hurry to get to hell? You'll regret it folks as you don't get a second chance.

...adg

[CPB]

We'll have China's one birth per couple rule first.

[tao]

Living beyond the genetic-max 120 is meaningless unless you can be:

1. Healthy
2. Active
3. Useful

People who live to 100+ today all did so because they felt they still had something to give, and did so daily. 21st century tech may let me live to 200+ and still look 30-something. You think I'm gonna just sit on my ass in a retirement village for 100+ years? Hell no! I'll start another business. Write a book. Climb Everest. Move to Mars. Whatever.

If you're adding value to the world instead of just sucking up resources, there is nothing society should fear from vastly extended lifespans. (OTOH, I've seen a lot of 20-somethings just sucking up air and junk food and being useless. Why are we keeping them around?)

You want to cull the herd a little? Just repeal every law designed to protect humans from themselves - seatbelts, helmets, warning labels, drug laws, gun laws. Things will sort themselves out soon enough.

[Borjan]

Two words - Switzerland and Holland.

Nice airports. Switzerland has chocolate and scenery. Holland has legal marijuana and hookers.

What are you waiting for? You're over 50 already... ;-)

[kite]

After I read your entry, I immediately searched "Vonnegut" in my browser search bar and true enough, there was one comment. (Only one?!)

2 B R 0 2 B

[Leora]

We just need to make it accessible for those without the physical ability to do it.
My friend the GP complained of the number of patients with DNR or DWD (do not resuscitate or death with dignity) on their charts who weren't allowed to die. Apparently hospitals are averse to that sort of thing. The crash cart would be wheeled in and some keen young doctor would jump on the patient's chest and zap it with voltage until the heart started beating again.

In honour of Rita Mae's impending retirement, I hereby resolve to use the word 'penis' in every post for the next 19 days.

[Hmm...]

What a coincidence! I was exactly thinking about this today. If people stop dying, I think we will start taking procreation seriously. Hefty license fee for having babies or near impossible qualification criteria to be allowed to copulate. Suicides will become legal and welcome.

[WCE]

I had this idea to cure overpopulation and get rid of the dumbest people first without ever actually *murdering* anyone. It goes like this:

You make an ATM machine, except the money is free, $20 at a time, all you have to do is follow a simple instruction like "Don't Push the Red Button!" or "Push the Green Button!". Underneath them is a trap-door that drops them into a grinder that feeds directly to a fish farm if the fail to follow the simple instruction.

Nobody holds a gun to anyone's head to make them use it, so it's all voluntary, and all they have to do is not screw up a simple instruction.

It's driven by greed, and works on overconfidence, so I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump was one of the first to feed the fish. It wouldn't target any sector of the economy, it would just trim the part of the population who are greedy and stupid and don't realize their own incompetence. I'd rather have them gone than the geezers who mind their own business and live as long as they can.

I'll bet you can think of at least a half-dozen people who'd end up fish food. Would you really miss them?

[TheNeverMind]

The way the news is looking these days? I'd say we're headed for a cross between "Logan's Run" and "Soylent Green". But on the bright side, life would be a whole lot less complicated for everyone if most folks could be a bit more rational about "quality of life", and take care of business before "assistance" becomes necessary.

[Billy Arvia]

A little late on this comment but it has always puzzled me why, when a pet we love gets sick and we are emotionally torn about what to do, the kind and merciful thing to do is to put them out of their misery. However, when a person that we love more than we could ever love a pet gets terminally ill, we are required to watch them suffer til the bitter end...

http://triplebee.squarespace.com/journal/

[jojo]

Just think what the movies would be like. Actors would look completely different from the rest us us - like they aren't now. But imagine Raquel Welch at 122 if she keeps on visitin the plastic surgeon! On the opposing side Mick Jagger. What would be worse - surgical intervention or no surgical intervention. Mick could be trippin' on his lips at 122. Think about it - a Stones tour in 40 years! Might be amusing.

[bobmilner]

Medical science already can keep people alive indefinitely. This has always been the case.

[Into my Timecube!]

There's no way the global economic system can keep us alive as it is. We're running out of oil, arable land, coal, rare metals, phosphates for fertilizer, and quite a lot else; and 2 billion Asian peasants joining the middle class is going to make it get a lot worse a lot faster.

Basically, you shouldn't plan to stay alive to 110 unless you're willing to resort to cannibalism.

[Ibid]

Here's how I see it unfolding.
Right now the Greatest Generation is elderly and dying slow painful deaths as the cancers eat away at them the deformed proteins destroy their brains and various body parts turn against them. Their kids, the Baby Boomers, are selfish little brats who would rather see their parents suffer than have to suffer the grief of losing them.
In another 20 or 30 years the Baby Boomers will be elderly and dying slow painful deaths as etc. etc. etc. They'll vote to make assisted suicide legal with all kinds of caveats to make sure Junior can't push them into it just to get the inheritance.

[A N Wart]

Solve the energy problem, use matrix technology keep them alive but just use up thier energy do not feed them. Old wrinkles they may be but still full of useful energy. Stick them on treadmills until they die of exhaustion (obviously labotomise or hypnotise them first to think they are top athletes). When they are dead do not burn thats a waste of carbon stick them in a big pile and use the gas from rotting corpses. Or solve the food crisis with soylent green.
Efficient use of assets.

[dontbother]

Death is inevita...........................................

[HannahsDad]

I've had experience of this in the UK, where assisted suicide is illegal. One of my elderly relatives decided she'd had enough of taking 30 pills a day and feeling like crap. The medical staff respected her decision to decline a life-extending blood transfusion, allowing her to die comfortably and with dignity.

This 'back door' solution is weak on the part of law-makers, and forces the moral dilemma onto medical staff.

[AURIEL013]

If most people are helpless pink robots, by now it is clear our programming includes the drive to survive and reproduce. Why would even the most elderly of us 'want to check out early'? Between anti-aging drugs and viagra, we would be able to fulfill both of those drives for... well, as long as possible. What pink-robot argument could possibly exist for checking out before our maximum live-breed allotment?

[ADHD librarian]

Yes,

(is that enough of a comment? Lets see if I can make it longer)

Yes it is inevitable.

(better?)

[Nicevil]

Don't worry, World War 3 will solve that problem.

[JReacher]

Why do they have to make a new drug to kill someone????

Can't they just use the out of date, illegal or superfluous ones until they either die or get better from all the medicine?

[Paulo]

Scott,

If this life is indeed that holographic-computer-simulation idea of yours, then the assisted suicide must become legal, if medical science gets that good. It's probably coded as a security instruction to prevent the system to run itself out of memory... ;-)

But, seriously... the human body may living longer but that's not necessarily the case of the human mind... The 'hardware' can be fixed and maintained by doctors, however the 'software' deteriorates anyway... Unless we can copy our minds in a computer... oh! that's the holographic-computer-simulation idea again!

[Gigi]

On a different note, Scott, i thought you would have enough for your progeny to idle away their lives. it worries me that you need to check on your "retirement plan" irrespective of how long you live.

[LafinJack]

I wrote a story about this a while back: http://lafinjack.livejournal.com/211470.html

[Vijay]

You are right, Instead of assisted suicide, we can probably start eating fellow-humen for food looking at the way food prices are increasing. I bet we will all be the animals in "I am the legend" one day!

[CronoLink]

But if brats in Asia (i.e. Japan) are so egocentric the sole idea of children makes them puke, what will happen to their nations? They'll sacrifice them for their selfish sake? Will the governments grab them by the nuts to keep on, or the Robot race will just wish to suicide them in order to free valuable resources?

[tony]

Japan is there already. A birthrate down to near one child per female, an average lifespan of 80, about one in six of the population is a pensioner, (the age for which has been raised from 60 to 65 recently), and it has been said they need 30 million immigrants over the next fifty years to keep the economy (and society) functioning.
There is a forest near Mount Fuji which is famous for people going in to it and not coming out. They have patrols watching out for depressed looking people who arrive alone.

[Paranoi A]

Sorry, Scott, maybe I'm nitpicking or possibly just schizophrenia kicking in, but I read through your whole post and in the end couldn't get my head past the title.

I know that it's a word play of some sort on "euthanasia", but what does asia have to do with it? I see nowhere in your post that you even mention asia. Could you be implying that asia will be the first continent to embrace assisted suicide en mass?

Maybe this post is related so some recent news event that I don't know about that hints on asian children wishing the death of their elders. Or maybe asia just has to too many people that if euthanasia is ever morally allowed, it'll jump at the chance.

[arby]

I am pretty tough guy, but if I was brain dead, a vegetable and there was no hope for a recovery and a quality of life, hey, pull the plug. But any time before that I will hang on to the bitter end, fighting, kicking and screaming with all my might to stay in this world.

If anyone hears of me committing suicide under anything less than described above, call the local District Attorney as there is probably foul play afoot.

Suicide is a very personal choice, the most personal. So it is up to the individual but should still be an option. How can you convict someone of killing themselves, especially if the are successful. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes and feed the worms.

[Juan]

I'm sure people will just choose to not use a healthcare program and hope for a faster death. But disease evolves pretty fast. Do you think humans can beat out all diseases?

[Joe Cooper]

It doesn't work that way.

People see that the average lifespan has continually gone up - it's around 30 to 40 in some places and in ancient times - and conclude that people live longer and longer.

No they don't.

What's actually happened is that people are continually less likely to die prematurely.

In the absence of early death from disease and accident, humans now live just as long as they ever did.

While surprises are always possible, something that actually extends a human's potential lifespan would be unprecedented and thus not something to ~expect~.

[Chris]

Christopher Buckley's novel "Boomsday" is a hilarious satire on the topic of "voluntary transitioning" (i.e. assisted suicide) as the solution for the economic drain of retiring boomers on social security.

[Chris]

Don't know if your longevity premise is true. Just a few weeks ago, the NY Times reported “large and growing” disparities in life expectancy for richer and poorer Americans and that life expectancy is declining in some pockets of the country. Another interesting story on the subject here: http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/84396/ claims in the past 20 years, the U.S. has sunk from ranking No. 11 in life expectancy to No. 42.

[Chubby Mike]

Not only will assisted suicide be legal, it will be mandatory at some point.

[Line Noise]

I refer you to Peter F. Hamilton's novel "Misspent Youth" which is about the first human to undergo a rejuvenation process that returns his body to that of a 20 year old.

I then refer you to his following books "Pandora's Star" and "Judas Unchained" set over 300 years after "Misspent Youth" which detail how the human race has adapted to near immortality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_F._Hamilton

[Richard]

Hmm... in theory many many people will want to live a really really long time, but many people have crummy jobs. Plus they wouldn't be able to afford the new technology anyway, so I predict that world population size will not be a problem.
Besides, we're all going to die because of either accidental/intentional nuclear war or food shortage, which will occur long before we will be able to live to 140...
:-)

[death]

Who needs assistance? It's fairly easy.

[Eric]

... This is the dumbest thing I've ever read. I think we have a LONG time before we need to worry about people living too long.

[Bruce Purcell]

If you aren't competent to cut your own throat, you shouldn't take the grave responsibility of ignoring God's ban on suicide.

If you are, whether it's legal don't signify.

[aahhrrgg]

You can't make it too easy. There's just been too many mornings when I would have opted for it. But then I had some caffeine and all was good.

[joe]

just think of the savings on the round trip tickets. the security screeners will go nuts, "he's either a pruny al queda or goin' on the big one way ticket special....pass."

[Luke]

In Australia we have a way of dealing with regions over-populated with kangaroos. It's called "culling".

Just a suggestion.

http://thisdevilsworkday.wordpress.com/

[caveat bettor]

When did you get so Malthusian? I guess I haven't been reading very carefully.

Tyler Cowen just posted today on increased agricultural productivity, via the price mechanism. I'm not sure Malthus will ever be vindicated, at least without totalitarianism.

[Torrey]

Logan's Run. All people over a certain age will be terminated in as entertaining a manner as possible. If they run there might even be the potential for an international Raisin Hunt. You would, of course, be required to get your raisin hunting license prior to gunning down all the old people (like me) in your vicinity that resemble the offending runner. What fun.

[teabagger]

you just need to make friends with a pharmacist, or become a pharmacist yourself. OR it isn't any harder to hold up a pharmacy and drink a couple bottles of nembutal than it is to fly to another country.

[joshua]

With the American health care system, most people don't have to worry about living much longer than they do today.

[Martin]

Your question is "What will happen when medical science can keep almost anyone alive indefinitely?" and suggest assisted suicide will become inevitable.

Why keep someone alive to kill them? Why not stop propping them up and let them naturally die? No need for euthanasia then.

In Holland (where assisted suicide is legal) they are considering moving on to enforced killing of the disabled.

It's a very slippery slope.

[bcammack]

Sometimes I long for the existence of "The Society For Creative Euthanasia". Usually after reading comments like rockbert's...

Among the Howards of "Time Enough for Love", a basic tenet of their culture was "death is everyone's right".

I've always thought that there ought to be booths every couple of city blocks. You go in, validate identification, answer the computer kiosk's questionnaire and, hey presto!, the door opens to an empty booth 30 seconds later. If it could be combined with converting matter to energy, the entire global civilization could be run of the energy created by painlessly excusing unhappy people from the game.

[Ben]

This all simply leads me to ask will there be a new retirement age? What if some people can not afford the health care and die around 70 and the retirement age gets moved to something around 110 so you could be old and not be allowed to retire. Just a thought.

[Vijay]

Why is the title of the post "Youth in Asia"?

[Bob G]

Forget about the costs, resources, etc, for a moment.

If medical science finds a way to keep people alive indefinitely, and therefore people don't die of old age, then barring any (ahem) unfortunate accidents wouldn't it become necessary for assisted suicide to be legalized?

Otherwise, we'd live forever. If, at 200 years old, your only two choices are 'accidentally' getting yourself caught in a wood chipper or having a doctor inject you in the comfort of your own home, I'd take option #2 any day of the week.

Thankfully I'm afraid I won't have to make that decision, since old age will inevitably find me before miracle science does...

[Jan]

Living longer is no problem if we also remain productive longer.

If we can stay productive long enough, we just have to limit breeding to the normal replacement rate. As Aubrey DeGrey says: "We will have to decide whether to have a low birth rate or a high death rate. The high death rate will of course arise from simply rejecting these [anti aging] therapies in favor of carrying on having a lot of kids."

Oh yeah and assisted suicide is legal in some European countries.

[Rachel D. C.]

Well, we allow that dignity to dogs, but not humans. Forget the airport thing; it should be available for cheap.

Also, I think there's a shorter biological limit for how long we can live that differs slightly between males and females. Don't remember what the numbers are, but I think they're both somewhere around 122.

[kls]

Here's another idea: how about some volunteer programs for people who are willing to take a one-way trip?

Personally, if I found out I had some terminal disease that was going to end badly, I'd probably sign up.

For example, we could send the first human to Mars a lot sooner and cheaper if we didn't have to work out all the return logistics.

Surely we must have some military opportunities, like charging into caves in Pakistan to see if Osama's home.

Hell, I'd even sign up for an attempt on the first triple=backflip on a dirt bike.

[DM]

Whether the old people are productive is irrelevant: they would still be eating up resources.

[jakesdad]

I absolutely support it in principle but what stops the slippery slope from truely terminal patients voluntarily requesting assitence to HMOs laying off their oncologists and just referring patients to their "preferred provider" in Huntsville, Texas?

[Not My Usual Alias]

Airfare to Portland International Airport would get you into Oregon's system.

The free blurb from the Oregonian:
Assisted suicides increase
03/19/2008
Forty-nine Oregonians ended their lives last year by taking a lethal drug dose prescribed under Oregon's unique Death With Dignity Act, state officials reported Tuesday. That's the highest annual total in the decade-long history of the...

[Roger Boese]

It already legal for natives in the Netherlands.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0574927120080505?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[John]

I have already attempted assisted suicide 4 times. Those guys have the worst return policies ever...

http://awritersblock.com

[Gregg M.]

Given what is known about aging, any life extension that will get you to 140 will add those years as "young" years, not "old" years, so assisted suicide would be needed about as much as it is now.

If the advance of lifespan gets to a point where life expectancy raises 1 year or more for every actual year that passes, then essentially, we've removed death by aging as something that people have to deal with.

If people don't die by aging, then reasonably, people would never retire, and pensions would no longer exist, because you'd be physically 25 (and able to work) until you eventually get hit by a semi or whatever way you end up checking out. If anything, this would be a GOOD thing, but Social Security payments and a lot of medical costs (aside from the anti-aging treatments) just aren't there anymore.

There's lots of related issues, but economic collapse isn't something that we'll have to worry about with THIS issue.

[Alfred]

A few economics words: substitution and innovation. If the market wants it, someone will try to make it.
1. We have all the electrical energy we can want; from the sun, just need better ways to capture, store and transmit.
2. Water is abundant: just need good desalination techniques, Dean Kamen is working on that.
3. Meats can be produced super efficiently in large vats, kind of like petri dishes.
4. Techniques for subterranean living spaces have hardly begun to come to frutation.

The future is brighter than ever.

Also, the book "The Singularity is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology" by R. Kurzweil lays out current trends that will help expand the human life cycle duration.

[Alex Blanco]

Scott, even if assisted suicide was legalized in every country the world, there would not be enough people wanting to do it as to reduce the impact of overpopulation. The future on this issue looks rather grim, and as far as I see it there are only 2 options:

1. Reduce the number of people. Seeing as how the world population follows an exponential increase, a rather substantial effort would have to be made in order to reduce the number of people. Assisted suicide wouldn't cut it. I can only shudder to think of what future leaders might imagine as a solution to this.

2. Increase the resources. Invest in improving the world's resources, and also improve the distribution arrangements so as to not waste valuable resources.

Sincerely though, none of these by itself would probably be enough. I would heavily rely on #2, but introducing some sort of educational tool so that the people understand its their responsibility to care for the future generations by not having too many kids. In case they had more kids, however, I'm strongly against penalties, the kids should be allowed to live and the family should not receive any kind of problems from the state. Education is the key.

[amen-not]

Personally I never want to "live long". It should not be a goal for anyone. I told my family I want to leave the earth when I am not "independent" any longer.

I can never understand why some people do all possible means to live long. Imagine billion x N (50+ more years) old chinese on earth!!!

[Imbecile]

Why go through the expense of flying anyone anywhere though? Save a TON of money and become the lowest cost euthanizer by creating your own "airline" EuthanAir, and when people get in line to board the plane, kill them as they are "boarding" - either in the jetway or in a room that looks like the inside of an airplane.

Tell their relatives that their ashes will arrive next week after they've gotten to the city and been processed. Just drop ship generic ashes from a central city with good shipping on a schedule and no one will be the wiser that they've not received their relatives actual ashes either.

PROFIT!

[Marcellus]

It's egal in Switzerland. We have two competing organizations battling over who can kill more. They are called dignitas and exit.

[Marco]

Youth In Asia is a cool name for a band!!

We'll need to invent something better than money if we're expected to keep all the old people alive (and fed).

[Stephen W. Stanton]

>> "There’s no way the global economic system can keep several billion people alive over the age of 100."

Sure it can.

It's all a matter of two variables.
1. How productive will future centegenarians be?
2. What tradeoffs are we willing to make?

The world can certainly provide enough bread, water and vitamins to support 5 billion more very slow metabolisms. As for space, they can fit neatly into 100 square foot apartments with 6.5 foot ceilings.

No, the world can't support 5 billion more old people that require 24/7/365 medical care and human assistance with all tasks other than breathing...

But a weekly hose-down would be easy for modestly healthy old folks.

[Steven]

Of course it is inevitable.

[avsa adasi]

The "Assisted" Suicide debate is simply an attempt by a few narcissistic individuals (e.g. Jack Kevorkian) to call attention to themselves and to further their political ambitions. They a taking what should be a personal and private process and turning it into a three ring circus, complete with "60 Minutes" video (a show that is still striving to rise to the level journalistic integrity of Jerry Springer).
DIY suicide has worked for all of history and those that choose it should be allowed their privacy.
Thank you for allowing my monkey dance.

http://www.avsaadasi.gen.tr and http://avsasitesi.com and http://www.avsa-avsa.net TRAVEL in TURKEY

THANK YOU ALL

[Mark Thorson]

No change to the law is needed
as long as we can buy do-it-
yourself suicide kits. Like
this one:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1065425760392B223

[Doubting Thomas]

I'd like to know how my comment got attributed to Les.

What I wrote, verbatim, is
I'm pretty sure they offer this service in Vegas already. You gamble, you hit the strip clubs, maybe a whore house if that's your style, and then you check in to the assisted suicide club, where you get pampered to death.

Did it get switched to Les during the comment moderation process?
~Doubting Thomas

[Pyramid Head]

I wish it were legalized in Brazil. This way I won't have to hang myself when the time comes (and it's very near for me, I can feel it). Doing it with a doctor would be easier and less painful...

I hate when people want to tell me what I have to do with my own life. It's MY life, and if I don't want it anymore I should have the option.

[Stacey]

The thing is, just because medical science can keep *you* alive to 140, doesn't mean it will keep *me* alive that long. I have no insurance right now & I'm fairly sure Medicade will not be covering 100% of the costs of various medicines & procedures necessary to keep me alive. I'm also sure that my 401k savings will barely cover the cost of basic health exams. Only the rich will be living to 140. The rest of us will die when we can no longer afford to pay to live.

If I choose not to leech off my kids to cover my medical costs at 110, am I committing suicide?

[BoscoH]

And after we solve this one, I'm hoping we can pursue legalized and subsidized 39th trimester abortion.

[drake]

how about going into space, we could ship the old people to colonize mars, but if you could keep on living why stop there..old go where no young man gone before

[Max Kaehn]

Urn? I'm having my remains turned into a diamond. Take a look at http://www.livegem.com/ ...

[tim shepard]

Dude, you won't make it to 70 the way you're going
Give it up already.

[Erik]

One way ticket to said country and a return UPS label. I smell "cross-marketing"...

[AC]

Get rid of the non productive old people (who defines productive?).
Get rid of the inmates costing money.
Get rid of the non productive Down Syndrome people.
Get rid of the fetus that has the wrong DNA.
Get rid of the non blond, non blue eye ... oh wait, wrong era.

[Bloodboiler]

Why is it that every discussion of euthanasia avoids the real problem? The problem with euthanasia is not medical or ethical determination of right or quality of life, but society vs. individual. Death is the cheapest fix to all medical and care taking problems, and we are all greedy assholes whenever situation doesn't directly affect us. If helping patients die is easy for doctors and at the same time hospital or nursing home is pressured to cut costs, you know what's going to happen. There is plenty of evidence that most of us are willing to kill healthy people if some authority figure demands that. How hard would it be to convince doctors to kill sick people?
I agree that people should have the right to choose to die if there is nothing but suffering left in their life, but in the same time people must have absolute power to choose to live and get all possible help to do so.

[DF]

I guess there is a reason they haven't cured cancer yet. Thinning the herd.

Assisted suicide is overrated, and you are overthinking the problem. All you have to do is find a friend who also wishes to die, buy a gun, and then go and shoot him in front of the police station. The police will rush out and end your suffering right there. Just in case the police are bad shots however, make sure you do it in a state that still has the death penalty. That way, the taxpayers can pay for your youth in asia trip.

[RavenBlack]

[dons ceremonial tinfoil hat] They are already doing assisted suicide for old people, in the form of "flu vaccinations".

[D. Mented]

To those who think nobody needs assistance if they really want to commit suicide -
what about the REALLY sick ones who can't get out of bed to get a rope or a gun or whatever? It seems to me if you still have the ability to commit suicide without assistance, you probably don't need or want to commit suicide - unless it's one of those cyclical mental decline ones like Alzheimer's where sometimes you know who you are and what's happenning to you and how much your loved ones are suffering, but you know you're just having a good day, and you will inevitably sink back into the paranoia and amnesia,etc. (by the way, hang on - the blood vaccine sounds VERY promising for that one)
To those who think the only problem with the average lifespan going over 100 is unproductive old people - DO THE MATH...Even old people eat, sleep in beds, wear clothes, drink water and wash in it,etc. Meanwhile, the birth rate hasn't stopped, and we'll be very lucky if it slows down. That means the population grows faster than ever with people getting born at the same or higher rate and the death rate slowing down...EARTH ISN'T GETTING BIGGER. Where are all the resources going to come from to feed, clothe, shelter, heat, cool, and provide internet for all these people?
I'm pretty sure most countries will allow assisted suicide (probably with something other than physicians...you'd need a doctor's consultation to declare incureable and debilitating or fatal, but then some death-technician would provide the actual assistance) maybe not the U.S. because we can politicise ANYTHING!
What we will need to preserve life as we know it will also be some form of general encouragement to USE BIRTH CONTROL to limit the number of children per couple to a sensible one or two, and time these births to occur *after* one has a steady job and stable relationship to bring them up well, so the little darlings have a chance to be blessings on society - not blights.
Sadly, the culture (and religions)will not change in time.
By the time even the selfish people recognise the crisis, it will be too late for even draconian measures to turn the tide (which will, by then, have swallowed a lot of coastland)
We're doomed.
We're so doomed I don't even want to live long enough to see the inevitable fall of civillization...Check me out at age 60(if the Mayan Doomsday prediction hasn't already proved true and destroyed the world on December 24, 2012)
D. Mented
Hey, Rita Mae - please tell us you'll check in and say PENIS every once in a while even after retirement; SOMEBODY has to keep us in line!

[BlindHorizon]

I am all for Assisted suicide, but i see alot of problems in it as well.

1) determining if a person really needs to die. look at all the famous people in history including now, take a look at Jack LaLanne he is well into his 90's and looks great and just keeps going. there are many more that i could list

2) who would perform the deed, it would have to be someone that has a very low opinion of life because they are really in essence killing people. I know i couldn't do it just because i have a conciouns.

3) what would be the means of death, pill, injections, gas, you have to be certified in what ever the death requires(look at all the botched Lethat injections in the criminal systems), and not including all the religiouls rights that people have.

and last

4) most older people are on Oxygen which means they cant get into a plane and fly to a country that has it, so there is really no way to get them there. he only way to get them there by boat and with any luck they would die on the boat ride there, the next thing is extridition of the remains back to there home country, its alot of paperwork would the families and or government really want to deal with that much, not to mention the cost of all of this.

[T.I.M.]

In the times of the end men will beg for death and be unable to die.

From about 6 years of age I realized my agenda would take about 400 years in my current incarnation. When I mentioned this to people they universally told me I was crazy. Now Ray Kurzweil says the same thing and he hasn't been wrong about anything yet. Yoda did it.

As for suicide I have always felt that to die on the surface of this planet would be the greatest ignominy. Ezechiel got a ride out, what am I chopped liver?

[Yuriy]

By the time we have any significant number of people reach 140, we'll be in the midst of a technological singularity. That means that either the economics issues will be solved, or we'll be too busy attempting to survive an AI assault.

[James]

You don't even need a good airport. Just make sure everyone on the airplane has purchased the same special one way ticket, and find a pilot who wants to go on permanent strike.

[Felix]

This leads me to a controversial thought: We really need to revise our concept of ethics/morality.
We need to understand that the bottomline of our environmental/resource issues are just because there are way too much folks around and near to unsustainable.
The whole frowning upon assisted suicide was fine for times when we had whole civilizations facing extinction but this does no longer applies to our current reality.

My 2c...

[Azi]

Sanjay: You're missing a really important point: "Soylent green is OTHER people"

[Russell]

I think a lot of these comments are very cynical about the value of human life. There is an inference in these comments that the old and infirm are a burden to us. I really think it is the epitomy of ego and selfishness to either think that because someone requires care that may get in the way of our own consumer culture, they should "off themselves." Or conversely, the idea that we don't want to "burden" our children with having to take care of us, so we'll just kill ourselves and the government can give them money. What if they want you? No amount of money can replace a human being.
Finally, I don't think the government should be in the business of killing its free citizens whether directly or indrectly, volitionally or against their will. Why does this need to be a "legal" thing? If you want to do it, there are plenty of painless, efficient means. Go out into your garage, turn the car on and wait. Or, supposing that medical science does make it possible to live that long, just don't avail yourself of those services and you can die earlier.

[Parker]

Scott, this is the best pro-tobacco argument I've ever seen. You need to get yourself on a big team of lawyers and start making your money. You're poised for bajillionairedom in the next 50 years.

[Charles]

A friend of a friend of a friend once told me that his father was financially comfortable, had loads of friends, and thoroughly enjoyed his time on earth. He purposefully spent all his accumulated wealth though and died with only $1000 left in the bank. He did not have to kill himself either. It just so happened that he got to spend his kids' inheritance before his (un)timely departure and impending bankrupcy.

Cool, eh!

Now, what were you saying about assisted suicide?

[J]

So long as the elderly can remain productive, there's no reason to check out early.

It's when "old people" turn into "useless old people" that extreme old age becomes an issue.

[rockbert]

The "Assisted" Suicide debate is simply an attempt by a few narcissistic individuals (e.g. Jack Kevorkian) to call attention to themselves and to further their political ambitions. They a taking what should be a personal and private process and turning it into a three ring circus, complete with "60 Minutes" video (a show that is still striving to rise to the level journalistic integrity of Jerry Springer).
DIY suicide has worked for all of history and those that choose it should be allowed their privacy.
Thank you for allowing my monkey dance.

[Googled]

If you are able to stay alive and healthy, why stop working? There is no reason to retire at 65 if at 65 you have the energy of a 35 yr old. Hence you wouldn't have to kill yourself. As for technology every scientist has already admitted the upper span for human age is in the 120's with the one exception coming fro ma calorie restricted diet, not technology.

[jerry w.]

You said "assisted suicide will be legal", but I'm looking for a place

where it's mandatory if you get voted off the island by a group of

your peers, and ones relative's votes count double.

It's not that I won't miss that low life nephew of mine, but

everyone serves a purpose even if it's only to be used

as an example of what not to do.

http://boskolives.wordpress.com/

[Brian]

It's legal here in Germany.

It's unfortunately the second time in our recent history that something like that is accepted here.

[John VdC]

In Belgium (where I live) this sort of thing has been legal for years. Sure, there are some legal hoops you have to jump through to avoid abuse etc. But if you're 'in grave pain' (can be faked) and have 'no chance of being cured' then it's just a matter of a few forms and that's it.

And those conditions are just boundaries which can pulled and pushed all the time. This law is only valid for adults (18+ here) but people talk about allowing children with cancer etc the option as well. What is 'in grave pain' and what is 'uncurable', that is all very debatable.

*shrug* Even my own mother, who saw her father being reduced to a shell of the man he used to be, told me to get things over with if at some point she no longer knew who I was.

Yes, it would be insanely hard to do, but if need be, it will be done.

[Glen]

At one time the Social Security retirement age, pension, IRA, Medicare, and other retirement age linked things were set to just below average life expectancy for males. This was based on the assumption that men were the primary wage-earners and that they tended to leave poor widows when they kicked the bucket.

Things have changed.

So the first thing is to have an automatic retirement age reset at, let's say, 90% of average life expectancy for humans. That will sort-out much of the cost burden. If we can twist the arms of other countries to also work their own populations to death, so to speak, then we'll be able to afford longevity while we're waiting for Moon and Mars colonies to become economically sustainable.

[RUBBA]

Scott,
"...young people who wish the old people were dead ...", so long as those old people aren't their great, or great, great grandparents.

By the way, the title reminds me of Invalid Coach
(disabled vs. null & void)

[Drew]

It is monday and I am feeling slow. I just got the "youth in asia" joke. Boy, I am dumb.

[spoilsport engineer]

Suicide needs to be illegal so that people who make inappropriate attempts to kill themselves can be committed long enough to get the help they need.

It is difficult for doctors to assist suicide because every doctor takes an oath that begins, "First, do no harm."

It is unlikely that human lifespan will ever extend beyond 130 years. The parts just wear out. I suppose we might eventually engineer creatures that resemble human beings but have better self-repair capabilities, but these creatures won't be human beings. You won't be able to mate with one, though the sex may be wonderful.

The same society that puts resources into achieving maximum human lifespan is hardly going to be excited about assisted suicide. These are two different possible futures, not coexistant ones.

And totally forget people choosing to off themselves to make way for their ungrateful children. In fact it's the opposite thing that will happen. People who plan to live 130 years will not have children, because it limits their wealth and damages their bodies. Instead of assisted suicide, think retroactive abortion.

[Bill in San Diego]

You betcha!
Logan's Run!

Actually, I am surprised that we cannot legalize it now. If someone is physically ill and does not want to suffer any longer, isn't a good thing?

I'm all for it. With conditions.

[Old Jacques]

Once it becomes that much more common for many (normal) people to live beyond 100, it won't be far behind that the minimum retirement age will be pushed back as well, as has already started happening in Europe, pushing back rediculously low public sector retirement ages (sometimes < 50) so that both the total number of workers and the total number of retirees rebalances to the new values. in twenty years you might not become a "senior" citizen until 75 or 80 maybe...

In your specific case, how hard can it be to push a digitizing pen at 120? Aren't they (extra low resistance) teflon tipped? You could work to 139 and leave everything to the kids that way.

Or just show off to the actuaries, and live to 160 and still enjoy 21 years of laziness.

[Quintus]

If it's only medicine and machines keeping me alive, the passive "assisted suicide" of not taking my pills or of turning off the ventilator that's breathing for me would end it naturally (i.e., without the hemlock), though perhaps not as quickly or pain-free in all cases.

[HMCIV]

In that future there will be a LOT more car wrecks

[Les]

Assisted suicide may be inevitable, much to my dismay, but for different reasons than age. I think you're too optimistic about long life spans, so I don't think that will be a factor. With most of this technology/drugs/etc. there usually comes a lot of crap that does just as much damage, for which we are left trying to figure out a fix.

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm pretty sure they offer this service in Vegas already. You gamble, you hit the strip clubs, maybe a whore house if that's your style, and then you check in to the assisted suicide club, where you get pampered to death.

[Ryan]

Matt Groening, the creator of The Simpsons and Futurama had a great idea to solve this problem: public suicide booths!

For just 25 cents you could step inside one of these booths and end it all in seconds! They even had two settings: quick and painless or slow and painful. What an industry that would be!

We could have wheelchair lifts into the booths... Just a thought :)

[James]

Look, we all have to die sometime of something. I say screw the "assisted" part--if it comes down to that, man up and do it yourself. If you can't stand that, you aren't ready to go. Also, when you're done, what are they gonna do, kill you? Oh yeah, too late... Bonus: your death is on no one's conscience but your own.

Caveat: Make sure your family understands so they don't guilt trip for the rest of their lives. A note won't do--you have to sit them down & have a serious conversation about it. Maybe a few of them.

[Simon Leinen]

Unless I'm mistaken, assisted suicide is already legal here in Switzerland. There are decent airports, as well.

[jesse]

maybe that's why one-way plane tickets are more expensive than round-trips....

[SRR]

Sanjay stole my comment. But I was going to say it like it was a good thing. Soylent Green is made of People, Mouthwatering, Delicious People. Mmmmm.

[Antoine Borg]

This is already legal in Switzerland.

A few articles in the British press last year highlighted this issue:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article398924.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article718807.ece

The court in England wants to prevent people from travelling abroad to commit suicide.

The Germans are a little more efficient:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3641866.ece

Antoine

[dsg]

Hi Scott,

I would say, not inevitable. It is not the acceptance of the idea that needs to change, but our legal system. Under current malpractice laws you won't get a long list of doctors lining up to start a practice. Malpractice and tort reform need to be addressed not attitudes towards the right to die.

Just pull the plug,
dsg

[Ivan]

Possibly it'd be possible to upload your folks consciousness onto the internet where they'd live in utopia forevermore. They would have to deal with the spam problem first though.

[Slap D. Monkey]

To reach that age, meds will be required to counteract the effects of aging. Duh, right? That means that meds will be needed to clear arterial build-up, to keep muscles and organs strong and functional, and to maintain energy. We won't need assisted suicide. Just stop partaking of medical science when you are ready to be worm food. Quit taking the longevity meds and wear a Do Not Resucitate bracelet. Voila!! Don't take two of these and call the morgue in the morning.

[Stomper]

Paul K;

Be sure to remind your Mom that:

1. Drugs meant for animals should not be used for people, and

2. Drugs can become risky or ineffective with age.

Your Mom's plan sounds dangerous. She could get really hurt, or even killed, if she is not careful.

--Stomper

PS: yes, this is intended as a morbid joke. seemed appropriate for the subject.

[a]

Its been legal in the Netherlands and Belgium since 2002 and theres been an adapted form in Oregon since 94.

http://oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/faqs.shtml#whatis

[Cedric]

I already heard someone talking in french of the concpet of "vie rectangulaire" (a rectangular life).

The idea is that health care programs will enable people to be cured and kept in good health until a given age, set by contract. Your health care will run until, say 97, and until that age you will be kept is perfect health. After that, it's time to die.

Setting an age limit for health care is a kind of programmed collective suicide.

[BCB1908]

I knew a girl in high school who was supposed to do a paper on euthanasia. She actually started the paper on Youth in Asia before the teacher noticed and corrected her. This was in an Advanced Placement History class...

[Scott Seltzer]

You should read Kurt Vonnegut Junior's books and stories, particularly the stories "Welcome to the Monkey House" (see Wikipedia for synopsis) and "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" (both in the collection of short stories, "Welcome to the Monkey House") which are both about future overpopulation as well as the incentives for "ethical suicides."

Vonnegut is my favorite author and I encourage you to read all of his books, several times.

-Scott

[Dave]

I don't know about inevitable, but there are other options. One, which I might have originally read about here, is that the government starts paying folks to off themselves. If you kill yourself at, say, 60, then your heirs get a check for $1M; at 70, it drops to $500k, etc. This gives folks a potential reason to self-control the percentage of elderly.

Another choice is the Logan's Run scenario, where folks simply are given a lifespan at birth. At some pre-designated age, they're, um, invited to a special party. In Logan's Run, the party was a 'rebirthing' event. True believers look forward to it; others are hunted down.

[Tetris]

Why does it have to be assisted? Couldn't we just legalize some nifty poison for people who want to commit suicide, something which is already legal in most countries? This solution would eliminate any moral problems anybody might have over killing others.

[Paul K]

It should be legal already. Your argument sounds pretty solid for the future, though.

My mom is a veterinarian, and she used to joke that she was hoarding anesthetic so if she ever realized she was getting senile, she'd just do herself in. I only THINK she's kidding...

[Sanjay]

Soylent green is people!

[fester60613]

I really do hope that it is inevitable.
We really should be able to end our lives as mercifully as we end the lives of our suffering animal companions.

[rita mae]

I don't know. Don't make me think about hard decisions.

I'm just waiting for these last 19 days to go by before I retire. Then I can die happy at home in my recliner.

Rita Mae

[Surely U. R. Mad]

Think about China. Their one-child policy is really going to bite them in a few years when relatively few working people will be trying to support very many old people. Maybe their form of assisted suicide will be much more focused on the "assisted" part.

[Real Live Girl]

It is inevitable that assisted suicide will be legal, whether living to be over 100 becomes common or not. And as long as there are safeguards in place to make sure it's not used for purposes of "unnatural" selection, to speed up collecting an inheritance, or trying to do a sneaky trade-in of an older spouse for a newer model, I'm ok with it. No need to go out all messy if you want to pull the plug on yourself early.

[Nick]

If you can get to 110 then there is no reason you cant get to 200 and onwards as long as you want, given the rate technology is progressing. Assisted suicide is only one of the issues that will come up. What about pensions ? No fund can cope with that so will they all collapse ? What will be the most interesting thing is what happens in the period between discovering how to keep us alive much longer and it being available cheap enough for the masses ?