Big Trouble

The NY Times has an interesting article about translating the Koran. Apparently the literal word of God contains lots of words with multiple meanings. A good example is Chapter 4, Verse 34. According to the NY Times, “The verse says that a rebellious woman should first be admonished, then abandoned in bed, and ultimately “beaten” — the most common translation for the Arabic word “daraba” — unless her behavior improves.”

What about those other translations for “daraba”?

The story explains “There are at least 20 English translations of the Koran. “Daraba” has been translated as beat, hit, strike, scourge, chastise, flog, make an example of, spank, pet, tap and even seduce.”

You can see the big problem here: A good number of wives might enjoy being spanked, petted, tapped and even seduced. If any of those last four definitions are the ones Allah intended, it means big trouble for Muslim men. You’re going to get a lot of this:

Wife: “Hey, Abdul, I spray painted the Star of David on your Mercedes because I’m rebellious! Now God says you have to seduce me! I like chocolate!”

I think we can all agree that the funniest translation of “daraba” is tap. I can imagine the conversation between a Muslim man and his spiritual leaders:

Man “My wife gave away my golf clubs. What should I do?”

Spiritual Leader: “Dude, you gotta go home and tap that.”

After reading about the Koran’s multiple translation problems, I started wondering if the Islamic terrorists might be misinterpreting the Koran. Perhaps the holy book doesn’t say to kill the infidels at all. Perhaps the Arab word for kill has lots of other interpretations including idolize, adore, wax their backs, fellate, and sell oil below cost. Maybe the terrorists just picked the easiest one.

This gives me a good idea on how to stop terrorism. All we have to do is print about 10 billion Korans with one or two words about the infidels altered, list some famous Islamic scholar as the publisher, assassinate him so he can’t talk, and give away the books for free. It will take a while for anyone to notice the few altered words and get the word out. By then it will be too late. The altered Korans will outnumber the correct ones, and in time the more common interpretation will seem right. In this future world, the biggest complaint that infidels will have about Islamic terrorists will be “He was nice, but his beard tickled, if you know what I mean.”

Here’s a link to the NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/25/us/25koran.html

Comments

[Zencat]

All religions tend to ascribe divine origin to their
ancient texts, somehow blurring their eyes when queried about the issues of translation and interpretation down through the ages, therefore subject to the limits of the understanding, political motives, and bias of the various scribes. Clearly the true Source of all consciousness transcends all and any word ever written on this tiny orb in our minute traverse through the majesty of the Infinite.
Best,

Zencat
http://www.buddhasbox.com

[SillyString]

"over time, the true meaning of the qoran has been diluted. but you shouldn't make fun of another religion's holy book."

Could you please explain why? If said book has stuff in it that begs to be called out for its innanity, Scott should just ignore it so YOU feel better?

Why do the religious always think that their "beliefs" have to be "respected"? The Xenu of Scientology is not respectable. Muhammad flying to the moon on a pegasus isn't respectable. Jesus coming back as a zombie isn't respectable. It's all fanciful claptrap - unless you have some evidence that of veracity for these claims. Which of course, none of you do.

It isn't bigoted when you call something what it is: delusional and evidentially unsupported.

[Eddie]

Two things...
1. We could diverte some of the wasted tax dollars to such a cause...
2. First post... Really bad actions = drinking alcohol... I think just about everyone outside of the Islamic religion is going to Hell....

[G. DePalma]

Scott,

I have to say that I am really disappointed in you. It may seem funny to you to say something so ignorant and bigoted but unless it your beliefs that are being made fun of, it isn't a joking matter. There is actually a book called "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Islam". In it the author addresses this particular verse since it seems to have been taken out of context by those that are not familar with the Islamic religion.

The verse that the NY Times article was talking about has been misrepresented. Traditionally it has been translated as thus: "As to those women from whom you fear defiant sinfulness, first admonish them, then refuse to share your bed with them, and then, if necessary, slap them. Then if they obey you, take no further actions against them and do not make excuses to punish them." (Qur'an 4:34)

Islam never gives any man the right to strike his wife for any reason unless she is engaging in some time of evil activity such as drinking alcohol, abusing the children, or other really bad behavior. Given that most women are not of this nature, physically punishing a wife should never arise in 99 percent of Islamic marriages. Now, take a closer look at the verse. If you will notice, two steps of reform and correction are mentioned first: talking with the woman; and if that doesn't work, the man sleeping on the couch to express his displeasure. Islamic scholars have ruled that these two steps could be carried out indefinitely.

But what if a woman is so bad that she refuses to listen and doesn't care if her husband is not sleeping with her(and she is still enagaged in the sinful activity). The last recourse is for the husband is to slap her. Now this where Islam gets interesting. Muhammad, who was brushing his teeth at the time, was asked by a man, "What should we slap them with?" He answered, "With this." And he held up the toothbrush. Look at that! Muhammad interperted this verse in such a way as to make the physical punishment laughable. The symbolic meaning of the slap with the toothbrush, then, is that the man has reached the end of his patience. An alternative meaning to the Arabic word, daraba, that is often translated as "slap" or "beat", is "to go away from". In other words, the symbolic tap of the toothbrush means that he is about to leave the marriage.

So actually, if you look at the verse in context, and use the mandatory interpertation of the Prophet, there is never any reason for the man to hit his wife in any way that would harm her. To restate, Islam does not allow a man to beat his wife; it merely provides a way for the man to symbolically express his displeasure when his wife is commiting a grave sin that threatens the stability of the family. Divorce may be the man's next step.

In regard to those that suggest that the Qur'an we have today is not completely in line with the one Muhammad recited, the reply is simple: All of the people who were involved in recording the Qur'an both during and after Muhammad's time were memorizers of the book.

The Qur'an was an oral message given to Muhammad through the archangel Gabriel. Muhammad himself couldn't write, so he asked his literate followers to be his earliest secretaries. By the time of the Prophet's death, hundreds of people had memorized the Qur'an in it's properly arranged order. After one the most prominent memorizers was killed in battle, the Qur'an was prepared to be put in a single book form so that it's proper order and reading would never be lost. This was done under the meticulous supervision of the Prophet's chief secretary. Five or seven copies were prepared, so that scribes in the far-flung regions of the Empire could make further copies. Two copies of those Qur'ans exist to this day in museums in Turkey and Taskent. They have EXACTLY the same text as any Arabic Qur'an today.

And to finally approach the subject of terrorists - they may call themselves Muslims, but they aren't. True Muslims of the world will never accept them as one of their own - simply because what they say they are doing in the name of Allah - killing innocents, suicide bombings - these things are not condoned in the Islam. They have strayed very far from the true religion.

I hope this clarifies some issues.

[Zarkow]

I find it very funny when adults fight over which Harry Potter-book is the one containing the Truth.

[rationalneurotic]

actually the bible itself also had a lot of translation problems, as with many translated material. That's why there's so many translations with the bible. I guess the only way to really read it is to learn the original language and then read it, ie learning hebrew and then reading the original text or learning arabic and then reading the original text of Quran (which a lot of Muslims do).

But that aside, I do find the post interesting and your blog interesting. =) Some materials are just a bit too sensitive to certain people, including me, who's a "anything goes" person... there are sore spots that we sometimes get offended by, even if we do find the humour on top appealing.

ah well.

[Oracle]

Scott, I think you are rebelious from a moslem point of view, If you try to read the koran yourself maybe you will be daraba-ed by it.

[QwkDrw]

Why are you looking in the Koran for what to do about a rebellious wife? Just lower your expectations -- and practice saying over and over: "You're right." "You're right." "You're right."

[ibn iblis]

Suleiman Ahmad, you seem to be stuck in a loop .. can you give some real arguments (maybe this is not the place, a discussion forum would be better) ?
btw, no need to shout, it's fine to disagree, .. sparks of truth come from the clash of opinions

[zilzal]

The Koran author foresaw you and immunized it exactly against you (and the other infidels :-)

"[3.7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you;
some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical;
then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding."

[Hassan]

Hahaha. I mean, hohoho. The stories of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are a lot more entertaining. Did Jesus wait for a tooth fairy when he lost a tooth, too?

[Sulaiman Ahmad]

Dear Ibn Iblis

(btw 'ibn iblis'='son of the devil' --- thanks for clearly showing your arrogance),

Thank you for replying to my post.

You seem to have quite a bit of 'knowledge', but obviously if you don't come ***neutrally*** to the Truth -without prejudice- these very verses apply to yourself.

THE TRUTH IS CLEAR, YOU JUST CHOSE TO CLOUD YOUR EYESIGHT.

Why do you take part of the book and ignore the rest? Allah 'misguides' only those who hate to be guided. Meaning that they CHOSE first to follow the wrong path (after clear guidance) and Allah delivered them to that path. Allah has all power, we have no power, no one can do anything without Him. You know this.

We can't even blink without Allah making it happen for us. We choose to move our limbs, but we don't make it happen, Allah does. You should know this.

'Moving' is an action. 'Misguiding' is also an action. We humans only have control over the 'Choosing' action.

THE TRUTH IS CLEAR, YOU JUST CHOOSE TO CLOUD YOUR EYESIGHT.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Relating Qur'anic Verses:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"...Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the reward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do. These are they who buy the life of this world for the hereafter, so their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped."(2:86-7)

"Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who *will*, then, *choose* a way unto his Lord."(73:19)

"Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and *He* *misleadeth* *thereby* *only* ***miscreants***;"(2:26)
-----------------------------------------------------------
I don't expect this to change you. My job is not to change anyone. My job is to deliver the Message of Truth. Your job is to change yourself. joker

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/

[diana]

hm. so dilbert is now a qoran specialist?

over time, the true meaning of the qoran has been diluted. but you shouldn't make fun of another religion's holy book.

i myself don't like the arabs for their extreme ways, but show some respect. you are influencing a lot of people.

[ibn iblis]

"The Truth is clear, you just choose to cloud your eyesight."

you think so ? what islam are you talking about ? apparently it is allah causing me to err, he's punishing me for something I cannot help, there's no choice in islam, only submission (also see http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html#HEADING1)

Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases (14.4)

Of them are some who listen unto thee, but We have placed upon their hearts veils, lest they should understand, and in their ears a deafness. If they saw every token they would not believe therein; to the point that, when they come unto thee to argue with thee, the disbelievers say: This is naught else than fables of the men of old (6.25)
[ps: in that day people believed the heart to have the function of the brain]

We confound their hearts and their eyes. As they believed not therein at the first, We let them wander blindly on in their contumacy (6.110)

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions. (16.93)

If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)! (6.35)

And let not those who disbelieve think that Our granting them respite is better for their souls; We grant them respite only that they may add to their sins; and they shall have a disgraceful chastisement (3.178)

Swaying between this (and that), (belonging) neither to these nor to those. He whom Allah causeth to go astray, thou (O Muhammad) wilt not find a way for him (14.143)

Whomsoever Allah guides, he is the one who follows the right way; and whomsoever He causes to err, these are the losers (7.178)

[Don]

Slang can be a problem too when translating. I read somewhere (Of course I can't remember where, it would make this too easy to disprove) a discussion of the story in the book of Numbers where Moses struck a rock and had water flow from it. To "strike a rock" was (supposedly) slang for having a change of luck, such as you are plowing your field one day and everything is fine until you damage your plow when it hits a rock.

So Moses and company are in the desert with little water until Moses "strikes a rock" and finds water. Some monk somewhere takes it literally and fills in the blanks. Now we have a story about the people being upset with Moses, he tells him that he will get water, and he hits a rock with a staff and water flows from it.

Makes sense?

[Sulaiman Ahmad]

lol joker.

Repeat:

Ignorance and Stupidity.

The Truth is clear, you just choose to cloud your eyesight.

http://www.Islamtomorrow.com/

[ibn iblis]

hello Abd Rahman,
You tell me to read before stating flaws. What makes you think I haven't read and I stated flaws, the fact you disagree with me? Hardly an argument. You mentioned you have been studying translations of the quran, can you agree most translations are 'softer' than the original arabic verses ?

The quran is supposed to be the last message from god to us people, so why speak of an historical context, are you saying allah made a mistake when it was revealed that the quran would be the last message and applicable to all people of all times ?

Can you point me to a verse where it says I need to interpret the book using the proper historical context, and are there directions on how to do this ? Am I asking too much ? Wouldn't this contradict the verses I posted earlier, saying the book is clear and without a doubt ?

[John]

I am paraphrasing here but I think Rufus said it best in "Dogma." People took a good idea and built a belief system out of it. You can change an idea but not a belief and tha tis dangerous.

[ibn iblis]

sorry OlioBandito, apparently I meant Shan .. it's kind of confusing to have the poster's name under that dotted line.

[Abd Rahman]

to Ibn. Iblis:

You forget one thing: historical context of what is happening when the verses is revealed to people. When the infidels trying to attack your supporter, what will you say? God help His people by letting them slay, kill them IN war (or actively, without any logical reasons but rage)

I believe you should read before stating a flaw.

-------
I've been undertaking considerable research towards translating the Koran for many years now. Problematically, I still have not been able to determine where precisely it instructs people to yell "AY-LALALALA" constantly.
Indeed. They need only anger (if I read your point correctly) when they were suppressed badly (or no other choices).

---------
"Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Above hadith was stated by the Prophet (S.A.W) because there are people out there becomes a Muslim because of the benefits they will receive when they become Muslims (which happened a lot after the Conquering of Mecca)

[some dude]

By the way,in the Bible they mentioned something about making idols of yourself...wonder if that applys to photographs?

[some dude]

I AM THE SHEIT OF THE TECHNOLOGICALLY BASED MUSLIM AUTHORITY AND WE WILL INCORPORATE OUR HACKING SYSTEMS(the closest we got to from 'kill all infidels') FOR SUGGESTING THE VILE AND DISPICABLE IDEA!!!!

[Arifi Waked]

Scot Adams, please check google or wikipedia before slandering Islam and all it's followers. I am honestly sad that I have to stop respecting you now. You've said some offensive things before, but this was the first time I was actually hurt by the depth of your ignorance and your complete disregard for the idea that a Muslim could also be a rational human being.

I have to move to America in a year to get my PhD if I want to be able to help develop special education here in the Middle East and honestly, since the so called educated and enlightened such as yourself are so frighteningly ignorant and dismissive of my humanity I'm now even more scared of moving there than I was before. I hope you do actually read this. Please just try to remember that you are a respected figure to many and when you post things like that, you make it that much more likely that a Muslim woman wearing the headscarf will be harassed and demeaned while in America.

[Salman Khalid]

Wow! I was barely able to sit straight in my chair... you know with all the laughter!

On a serious note; Seriously?

There is not a problem of translation alone, and one's problem is not merely one of accuracy of translation either. To start with, it is part of the unique nature of the Qur'an that many of its statements allow more than one interpretation. I think it was Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, who described the Qur'an as "allowing different versions."

When we read the Qur'an in Arabic, we are aware of at least some of these differences, and accept them all as being intended in the overall meaning of the Qur'an. Since we acknowledge that Qur'an is God's own word, we cannot say that a correct meaning of what He has revealed is not intended. However, study of the Qur'an itself and the Hadith will settle a great deal of what is meant by each Qur'anic statement.

Some people may suggest that they do not have time for such a study. The answer is that they need to ask those who devote much of their time and energy to the studying of the Qur'an, the Hadith, and Islamic studies generally. This is nothing new. Even in the very early days after the Prophet, peace be upon him, had passed away, some of the companions were known for their scholarly knowledge, and they were asked for rulings on different matters.

When it comes to translation, a translator has the not-so-easy task of producing in his language what someone else has expressed in a different language. There are methods of expression, shades of meaning, word and phrase connotations, and other subtleties, which cannot be reproduced, in another language. These have much to do with the culture of the two languages used. This applies to translation of any text written by human beings. The more literary the style, the more difficult it is to reproduce it in another language. The difficulty is even much greater with the Qur'an, the word of God. The Qur'anic style is so excellent that it surpasses any human style in any language.

What do we expect, then, from the poor translator, competent as he may be? Muhammad Asad, who produced one of the best translations of the Qur'an in English, says these very words at the end of his work: "In all humility and true submission ends the attempt of a powerless servant of God in interpreting the immortal word of his Lord."

So we do not blame the translators as long as they make an honest attempt to produce a good translation. We take all meanings that are within a reasonable interpretation of the text. We study the Qur'an and Hadith to acquire a good insight into what God's message is. (Reference; Our Dialogue)

The Verse 4:34 is interprettable into various forms, however, upon study in light of other verses and other hadiths, one is left with only a bunch of translations.

And in regards to beating another person; one has to take into consideration Huqooq of the People that Allah has stressed upon in Quran, and the words of Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) in which he speaks against those who inflict harm on another (when not in war).

May God guide us all!

Best Regards,
Salman Khalid.

[Salman Khalid]

Wow! I was barely able to sit straight in my chair... you know with all the laughter!

On a serious note; Seriously?

There is not a problem of translation alone, and one's problem is not merely one of accuracy of translation either. To start with, it is part of the unique nature of the Qur'an that many of its statements allow more than one interpretation. I think it was Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, who described the Qur'an as "allowing different versions."

When we read the Qur'an in Arabic, we are aware of at least some of these differences, and accept them all as being intended in the overall meaning of the Qur'an. Since we acknowledge that Qur'an is God's own word, we cannot say that a correct meaning of what He has revealed is not intended. However, study of the Qur'an itself and the Hadith will settle a great deal of what is meant by each Qur'anic statement.

Some people may suggest that they do not have time for such a study. The answer is that they need to ask those who devote much of their time and energy to the studying of the Qur'an, the Hadith, and Islamic studies generally. This is nothing new. Even in the very early days after the Prophet, peace be upon him, had passed away, some of the companions were known for their scholarly knowledge, and they were asked for rulings on different matters.

When it comes to translation, a translator has the not-so-easy task of producing in his language what someone else has expressed in a different language. There are methods of expression, shades of meaning, word and phrase connotations, and other subtleties, which cannot be reproduced, in another language. These have much to do with the culture of the two languages used. This applies to translation of any text written by human beings. The more literary the style, the more difficult it is to reproduce it in another language. The difficulty is even much greater with the Qur'an, the word of God. The Qur'anic style is so excellent that it surpasses any human style in any language.

What do we expect, then, from the poor translator, competent as he may be? Muhammad Asad, who produced one of the best translations of the Qur'an in English, says these very words at the end of his work: "In all humility and true submission ends the attempt of a powerless servant of God in interpreting the immortal word of his Lord."

So we do not blame the translators as long as they make an honest attempt to produce a good translation. We take all meanings that are within a reasonable interpretation of the text. We study the Qur'an and Hadith to acquire a good insight into what God's message is. (Reference; Our Dialogue)

The Verse 4:34 is interprettable into various forms, however, upon study in light of other verses and other hadiths, one is left with only a bunch of translations.

And in regards to beating another person; one has to take into consideration Huqooq of the People that Allah has stressed upon in Quran, and the words of Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) in which he speaks against those who inflict harm on another (when not in war).

May God guide us all!

Best Regards,
Salman Khalid.