May 2008

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Okay, first off, does it matter if anything has a soul?
Does it really matter if "souls" exhist? If the do, what have they ever done for anyone. If they exhist, you've never seen it, never interacted with it, and I bet you rarely ever thought about it until you read this blog.

Everyone that's made some association to God, first off, God is just a fairy tale for adults. Who said it matters how a person came to be? What would be the big ethical difference between a clone, grown inside a woman, or artificial insemination?

Chris Alexander

Apologies to Nick for misattributing his post to mcaff—I'm new here and looked on the wrong side of the line.

Chris Alexander

Re "The soul is who I am, so how can I have it. Having something is ownership. Can you have you?" from mccaff, we can also ask— do you "have" a body, or are you your body?"

Science seems to be bringing us ever nearer the inevitable conclusion— much to the chagrin of supernaturalists/religious people— that we are our bodies, of which our brains and minds are a part.

Recommend Stephen Pinker's recent article on the origins of morality in the NYT magazine, also discussed on NPR's Talk of The Nation (yesterday, I think).

One more question: would there be any difference between eating a living thing that had been cloned in a lab then transplanted into a uterus, and one that had been cloned and raised in a lab?


Have you read Peter Freke's work? The Laughing Jesus has some interesting stuff on consciousness, the 'it' and the 'I' that we all are.


My foot has a sole but I don't have a soul. The soul is who I am, so how can I have it. Having something is ownership. Can you have you? So the answer is no, but the question was ask incorrectly.

Dave Oblad

In response to Turkeyhead:

First.. My name is Dave Oblad. I don't hide who I am.
The fact you call me David MacMillan indicates you can't discern
the basic structure of Scotts Blog.. let alone complex reality.
You choose to call yourself by a descriptive reference.. Ok with me.

Dear Turkeyhead..

You Stated: "that would mean that all us are physically the same but
our software is different? That is not the case.___Us organic
computers change as time goes by."

Ok.. so you concede we are organic computers that have flexible and adaptable
software/firmware.. What's your point? What's not the case?

Watch the movie '13th Floor'. You might glean my reference to the concept
that the world we live in has no real solid substance. It doesn't!!!
It's entirely mathematical. We exist inside an equation. And an equation
doesn't have to be computed for it's solution to exist.
Example: The solution to PI is 3.1415... etc. The following sequence of
numbers for PI "EXIST" regardless of being computed or not. Computing these
digits simply allows us to observe their existence. Our existence is in a far
more complex equation than PI but we still exist in the same manner.

Dreaming is an exercise of the Virtual Modeling Firmware in our brains.
You see (with closed eyes) your friends and your fantasy environment.
You stated: "Dreaming is not an exercise of this program without
external stimulus." I didn't say dreaming was ALWAYS without local stimulus,
just not inclusive of local stimulus at all times. We can tune out external
stimulus most of the time.

You stated: "There is electronic charge in your brain which is essentially the
illusion of thought, and until that charge is gone, you will continue thinking.
That said, once you die there is no more thought." {Are you sure?}

I agree, the brain will cease to function. But the mathematical version of
your brain can't be destroyed. In other words: If I build a Boolean math
model of your exact semi-hard-wired brain and remove external stimulus then
(bearing in mind.. the brain functions by computing a virtual reality model)
would this thinking [EQUATION] have a next thought? Yes, it would! It is self
contained and doesn't require external stimulus. So when you die, your organic
version here may cease but the mathematical equivalent can't stop existing.
It would dream and continue to exist forever, just like PI. That is a Soul.

So I would normally stop there and conclude that (when we die) we continue to
exist in a mathematical bubble universe of our own creation . However....

This reality we live in is built upon a multi-dimensional lattice that allows
information to travel from point to point. Waves, photons, quarks, strings..
Our universe is completely interactive with itself!

Our souls may not be confined to a bubble-verse. They might also share a
common lattice that allows an exchange of information. This is the bridge
I speak of. I only added this a short while ago to my hypothesis because
of certain observations that imply a subtle connection between all souls.
Note: This bridge may also be supplied by a superior intellect in much the
same way as I may connect two computers to play chess with each other.

However, recognizing the existence of bridges stems mostly from observation.
I.e.: Examples of animals and/or man, separated by distance and no possible
communication, having or sharing unique behaviors and ideas. Coincidences that
far exceed probabilities. Acting on a hunch, Guardian Angels, etc. I used
to scoff at the supernatural myself, but I'm not so sure now days. Especially
now that I see a possible mechanism that may answer so many nagging questions.

Also, I don't use math to confuse, impress or intimidate folks. I am a long
time computer programmer and that has given me some nifty insights into the
realm of mathematics and logic that I wish could be universally shared.

Finally, research "Flatlander", then come back. If you observed a flatlander,
you would see a 3D construct that is motionless. He lives in 2D space and
time is his 3rd dimension. He will look more like a long bending warped tube
extending from his birth to his burial. In one glance, you might see his
beginning to his ending as a solid motionless 3D shape. In the same way, a
4D creature may witness the same about you. That all that you are, might exist
in one glance or simultaneous moment. The Soul may not be a capture of just your
last mind pattern is my point.. It may be the sum of all it's 3D experience
plus Time, thus making it a 4 dimensional construct. If a Flatlander Soul is
modeled on 2D math and time is added such that he becomes the total sum of his
timed existence.. he becomes a 3D construct.

Have you ever heard about someone coming to near death and seeing their whole
detailed life flash before them? Did they just have a glimpse of the true
nature of their Soul before getting yanked back here?
Honestly.. I don't know! (But it's a fun idea..)

So Turkeyhead.. I hope this helps explain things a bit better. The subject
matter is far too voluminous to post on a Blog in detail. Just space for a few
ideas and thoughts hoping to stir an insight in some reader that might result
in his/her adding something useful to our human knowledge base some day.

Also keep in mind that if something doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean
that it makes no sense to everyone else.

I hope Turkeyhead isn't a pseudonym for Scott Adams trying to make this monkey
dance a little

Best wishes Scott (and Turkeyhead) from Dave :^)


In response to David MacMillan:

Do we have souls?
We don't!

In your example of a soul being the software for an organic computer, that would mean that all us are physically the same but our software is different? That is not the case. We have -similar- organic structure (hardware) but there is no software. The hardware (biological mass) operates as it is constructed. If you have two identical humans (exact same atoms in the exact same places) in the same environment (again, down to the atom and beyond), the biological computer would run the same until the environments differ. Since a clone would not be identical down to the atomic level and beyond, the clone would differ slightly, and moreso over time. Us organic computers change as time goes by.

Your point on "substance" makes no sense to me. Not sure what you were getting at there...

Dreaming is not an "exercise of this program without external stimulus". We are ALWAYS reacting to external stimulus. Haven't you ever been dreaming when the phone started to ring? You incorporate that into your dream.

If you remove all external stimuli, would you have another thought? Yes. You still have internal stimuli. There is electronic charge in your brain which is essentially the illusion of thought, and until that charge is gone, you will continue thinking. That said, once you die there is no more thought.

The rest of your post gets pretty hokey, and all that "bridges can be built with fellow souls" is a load of bunk. Get back to me when there are some scientific studies that show any of that to be true.

Oh, and please don't try to use math to confuse people. What does it even mean when you say "The soul is a 4 dimensional mathematical construct." What math is this? Have you ever heard a mathematician talk about the mathematics of the soul? Is soul multiplication commutative? Bleh, talk sense.

No souls, just biology. Dig in.

David MacMillan

We already have clones. They are called identical twins.

Dave Oblad

The popular opinion I've seen here is that we don't have souls.
We do!

What is a soul?
Well first.. You are an organic computer.
The soul would be the program (software) for it.

We all dwell in the solution of a complex equation.
Substance is no more real then the walls in a video game.
Substance is real only by reference.
If your program (soul) was copied into a compatible
electronic matrix then you will have cloned your soul.

You are a virtual reality program. Details are fed to this
program via your senses to build an internal reality that
represents the external reality. Dreaming is an exercise
of this program without external stimulus.

The soul is a 4 dimensional mathematical construct. It is no
more real or less real than the reality you see around you.
It is 4 dimensional because it's is composed of all moments
you have lived, not just that last moments or current moment
of your life.

If you take the program (soul) and remove all external stimulus
then would the program have a next thought or computation?
Yes, it would! The soul isn't tangible here because it exists
on another dimension of math. Removing the physical connection
to this place doesn't destroy it, it just continues and dreams.

Because it shares common connections with the living, bridges
can be built with fellow souls leading to common dreaming.
The after life is a common dream between the dead and a bit from
the living. They (dead friends etc) communicate all the time with
us and each other. They sometimes intervene and affect a decision
you may be making. Don't take that plane.. Don't turn left.. Stop!

We get background advice from the other side on a subconscious level
all the time. We call it luck, poetic justice, inner light. It has many names.

Anything that can dream, has a soul.
Does that answer your question Scott?

Good Blog.. Best wishes from Dave :^)


Sure. Why not?

I mean, I think my left has a soul. I've had the very last bit of my finger flex when none of the rest of my finger did just so it could poke me in the eye. I've woken up with it trying to choke me, too.

Maybe I should eat my left hand.

Sir Mike Tallon, PhD

No one has a soul. A clone would be a brand new free thinking human.


The Clone Song
sung to Home on the Range, words by Isaac Asimov

Oh, give me a clone
Of my own flesh and bone
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And after it's grown,
Then my own little clone
Will be of the opposite sex.

Clone, clone of my own,
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex.


How on earth would it be possible to measure and conclude that the clone is not safe to eat?

How would you select who to eat when the two are identical?

Yes, clones have souls, but the soul a clone, too.

Scott (Not Adams)

First we have to decide if clowns have souls. Those giant shoes clearly have soles.

Fran in London

According to Seanbaby, there is a way to find out if they have souls or not

"Now that evil clones are in our sandwiches and walking among us, it's more important than ever to detect them. But how can you tell if a person doesn't have a soul? It's easier than you might think. Place the suspected clone in a chair and tell them to remain perfectly still. Now play Eye of the Tiger. If there's a soul in there, this song with find it. By the end of the DADADUDUDA DA DA DA DADA's, their head should start to bob. You might think they look mad, but this is a mistake. They're getting TOUGH. Thirty seconds later, they should be pumping one or both arms up and down to the beat and fighting the boxing match of their life in their head. If none of this happens -- shoot them in the face. And good work. You just elminated a clone, soldier. "


Do Clones have souls?

No, but thats ok, no-one else does either.

Soul (noun)

Derived from many transalations but believed to originate with the latin term 'madeupius' meaning 'assinine dualist horseshit'


They will eventually clone humans. Why not gather them up and use them to populate Mars, the other planets and beyond. I am sure the mortality rate will be high in these risky, multi-decade voyages but hey, they are not “real” people anyway. We won’t live to see them return and take over the earth.

This way you will not be bumping into them at the local supermarket or them sneaking in and sleeping with your unsuspecting spouse.


A very delicate question, requiring a fastidious approach to the whole spiritual concept of souls and the non-materialistic. You would probably be close to the right track guessing that such a question would send even your local heads of church into a stammering, uncomitted slur. Therefore I will undertake to answer it with due respect and consideration to all parties:

Who the fuck cares? I mean even if they did have souls there's nothing you can do with your soul except maybe sell it to the devil. It just is, the soul. Sure you can nourish it or deprive it but at the end of the day you're pretty much in the same wing of things whether you did one or the other. Let's let the people who can actually deal with souls ask that question and answer it for themselves and go on with our meaningless, futile lives, engrossed in the intensely complex and unimaginably large equation that is human life on the planet earth. Souls be damned!

Joe Cooper

Why not??

If it's because they're "man made", remember that all people are "man made".

Don't they cover that in sex ed?

The bible doesn't cover this anyway. If God cared about this particular petty technicality we've come up with, he would've mentioned it.

Kevin Kunreuther

Just one more thing ...
Why bother cloning the whole body? Isn't that a waste of time and effort? All you really need to clone are your best, most delicious, most nutritious bits. A liver here, a piece of thigh there, maybe a shoulder, brains if you're not too squeamish, a little bone marrow, that's very rich. If you clone a nice healthy heart, fire up the broiler and good appetite!

No leftover bones, hair, eyeballs, genitalia and other unappetizing bits (unless you want to make soap from the body fat and a lampshade out of your clone's skin).


We could all have clones. Who is there to tell you that there isn't a person who looks, acts and smells exactly like you on another part of the world?


I'll go & ask Rothschilds..


If I murder my clone... would it be man slaughter or suicide ?

Would I go to hell?

Anyway, I shouldn't eat my clone, I think it'd taste kind'o greasy...



Clones don't have souls, neither do we.


If souls have clones, they do

Throwback to earlier post:

I sold my soul to the deyyyyyyvil and cried my heart out
Heartless soul-less me, whats to sing about
Maybe another me so the grief we have we share
Gimme another soul free doppelgangeyyyyr

Soulless -lord-of-sucky-lyrics

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